asperity Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 I can accept that Bill. We also can't call on slave labour which gives China a further edge đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallard12 Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 Not been following this topic, but will throw this in.  In Texas, the payback on solar panels is generally accepted at 20 to 25 years.  Seeing as we get around 300 days of constant sun every year, I canât imagine it being better in the UK. If everyone had solar panels and the landscape was covered in wind farms, it could still only produce enough to be a supplementary source, the bulk would still be produced by fossil or nuclear fuels.  Itâs obvious that the most sensible plan is to develop nuclear Power Plants while continuing to enjoy fossil fuel, then when it runs out just switch to all nuclear. If the myth of climate change by emissions comes into the conversation, it is immediately made moot as long as we have India, Pakistan, China and the rest of the third world.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 Yep Iâll go along with that but the payback time on solar or heat pumps depend on the overall cost of installing a system and the price of electricity over the payback time. People wonât go for something so expensive that takes 20 years to get back so thereâs little point in the government even suggesting it. What I was suggesting is for the country to setup a manufacturing plant here in the UK and make the stuff here as opposed to importing it from China and if we can do it at cost or even for free then the payback time becomes irrelevant. No slave labour needed, we simply reduce unemployment and cut CO2 emissions at the same time. I reckon it's 100% doable but it would mean creating a nationalised industry working for the good of the country rather than for private profit and that pill would probably too big for this government to swallow.  Bill đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 British Leyland Mark II? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 Very nearly Asp but weâd just have to do it a bit better. For nearly thirty years I ran a highly successful company that worked along similar lines, producing equipment that allowed smaller companies to access technology that was normally only affordable by larger companies. It depends entirely on where you set your goals and the altruistic model worked well for me, my staff and my customers. It doesnât always have to be about making money and personal gain and helping others is something that I find more rewarding than any amount of dosh. Â Bill đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer II Posted April 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2021 There was a piece on Countryfile, showing how heat can be collected from a canal. A heat exchanger is submerged in the water, which retains heat relative to the outside temperature, and piped through a building.  But I can't see how this can give a hot internal temperature, not like turning your thermostat up with gas central heating.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 13, 2021 Report Share Posted April 13, 2021 A heat exchanger system can be turned up and down just like any other but flat out it doesnât get quite as hot as a conventional system so thatâs why good insulation is recommended. Not everyone has a canal nearby so most would use one that takes heat from the outside air. Â Â Bill đ Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted April 13, 2021 Report Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Observer II said: There was a piece on Countryfile, showing how heat can be collected from a canal. A heat exchanger is submerged in the water, which retains heat relative to the outside temperature, and piped through a building.  But I can't see how this can give a hot internal temperature, not like turning your thermostat up with gas central heating.  The pipes are used to feed a heat pump. It is like an inside out fridge, the pipes on the inside of the fridge take heat out of the cold compartment and using electric power push it as heat to the cooling fins on the outside. In the river heating case the cold pipes are submerged and the cooling fins are your domestic heating system or radiators. The temperature of the heating system is not determined by the temperature of the river water but by the energy from the mains driving the heat pump. The process is similar with ground sourced pumps that get the primary energy from a hole in the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 14, 2021 Report Share Posted April 14, 2021 While thinking about all this, Iâve been checking the live feed to see how much electrical power comes from the various sources and it shows that while wind and solar overall makes up a significant proportion of our needs itâs about as reliable as the local bus service. Yesterday morning just as it was coming light, there wasnât a breath of wind and obviously no solar so the gas-powered plants were working overtime. The conclusion I draw from this is irrespective of how much more wind and solar we add, weâll still need just as many gas-fired stations on standby to pick up the slack. Year on year they make up 25% of our needs and in favourable conditions they can produce more than 50%. So, it seems logical to me to believe that we could continue to invest in these relatively cheap unreliable technologies as they do add power and reduce the amount of gas being burnt but it doesnât do anything to provide a stable grid. Moving domestic heating from gas would probably mean building even more gas fired stations as theyâre cheaper and far quicker to build than either nuclear or hydro. Â Bill đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted April 14, 2021 Report Share Posted April 14, 2021 Sure there is some place that uses refurbished car batteries to store electric to feed back to the grid or maybe it was to charge electric cars. Might be an option for small rural areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 14, 2021 Report Share Posted April 14, 2021 For sure thatâs going to happen Sid because when all the cars are electric, the stored energy in their batteries would be more than the entire grid so they will be able to sell their power back to the grid to meet peak demands. Thereâs no free dinners though and the power has to be generated at some point. Â Bill đ Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 The technology is there bill referred to as V2G. when you are not using your electric car you can opt to have the stored charge sent back to the grid leaving you with a preset charge level for your car. If that is the case then "old" batteries that may not hold a full charge could be used as a similar storage idea for use during peak times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 Thatâs correct Sid and it shoots down the scepticâs argument that used batteries will cause the end of the world because scrap yards wonât have a clue how to deal with them. My understanding is that a used battery still have a relatively high value and all the manufactures have schemes to take back them back either for recycling or repurposing. In power terms this could help smooth out the sharp peaks in demand during the day but once all vehicles are electrified, the amount of stored energy becomes more like a giant reservoir, able to sustain power for weeks on end in the absence of wind or sunshine. This will take a long time to happen but when it does it means that with just three or four times more renewable sources, we could stop relying on burning fossil fuels completely. If it helps to stop the warming process all well and good but if it doesnât then at least weâll all have cleaner air to breathe. Â Bill đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer II Posted April 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 None of us will be around by then Bill !  đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 I hope everyone is enjoying the Global Warming this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer II Posted April 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 While we're still here !   đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 Loving the global warming at the moment Asp and my washing outside is drying a treat. The feed in system for cars is already happening although at the moment itâs negligible. But when all cars become electric itâll make a big difference, and ten years after that when used batteries outnumber new ones, we should have more than enough reserve capacity to fall back on. Bear in mind that this is happening anyway and starting the process early might not seem logical to some, but itâs far better than waiting for the grid to start failing before we begin taking any action. As long as the roll out of more solar and wind continues to match the electrification of cars, then we shouldn't go too far wrong.  Bill đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 I've got my washing freeze-drying outside as well Bill 𼜠Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallard12 Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 Bill, research the US solar panel company called Solindra. Â Good old Obama touted them as the future and handed them $500 million dollars for expansion. Â A few weeks later the declared bankruptcy, closed down the plant and split the âloanâ equally between the Directors ! Â This was followed by the closing of all domestic solar equipment production. Â China wins again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer II Posted April 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 So, why didn't Donald sort them out ?   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 1 minute ago, Observer II said: So, why didn't Donald sort them out ?   If a company has gone bankrupt and the directors scarpered, what's to sort out? đ¤ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 Itâs not the first time a private company has cashed in on a deal involving public money but that shouldnât be possible if the company was owned by the government\public. Just to be clear, Iâm no big fan of nationalisation but if the objective is to is to produce something as cheaply as possible and without profit then itâs the only way to go. Â Bill đ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 On 4/14/2021 at 2:16 PM, Evil Sid said: Sure there is some place that uses refurbished car batteries to store electric to feed back to the grid or maybe it was to charge electric cars. Might be an option for small rural areas. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 I think that was one of the channel islands ,Sid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Could well have been,i just vaguely remember reading about it somewhere a while back but have had a few sleeps since then and a quick google did not turn up the article no matter how i worded the search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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