asperity Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 I didn't realise you were still school-age Obs 😉. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 I must say ,with all the lock downs that have been in place ,lack of air travel etc & mask & sanitisation precautions ,that i find it increasingly difficult to believe covid is passed on by personal contact. The way the world is being ravaged by this virus makes me think it is carried on prevailing winds or by some other delivery method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 postmen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 I think your right Davy in that a lot of the virus is airborne and can be passed between people easier than we thought. You can smell someone’s breath when they’ve been drinking or smoking and although you can’t smell the virus, I’d think the transmission mechanism is the same. Don't shoot the postman just yet. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 The UK has allegedly had 2.5 million cases of Covid 19 so far, surely some simple collation of these would have given an indication of how the infection was passed on. e.g. where/how did the "victim" think they'd picked it up, did he/she mix socially, mask or no mask, any contact with any other "victim", public transport or private etc. Or has nobody thought to ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 1 hour ago, asperity said: The UK has allegedly had 2.5 million cases of Covid 19 so far, surely some simple collation of these would have given an indication of how the infection was passed on. e.g. where/how did the "victim" think they'd picked it up, did he/she mix socially, mask or no mask, any contact with any other "victim", public transport or private etc. Or has nobody thought to ask? There is lots of data on the answers to the questions you ask. The problem seems to be that the incubation period is extremely variable so people have been to a lot of normal places in the week before they find that they are ill. I have seen documents that show that Sage say that people should not be blamed for doing risky things and they should just be encouraged to take precautions. I suspect that is why the reality is being hidden from the public. It transmits most within a household so where it is caught outside, by what is the household index case, is most important and they don't separate the data out for the index cases for public consumption. Local and national governments have this data but I suspect that the advice from the social scientists stops the public being told the whole story. I also suspect that the advice of social scientist to effectively withhold the truth from the public is causing a lot of people to see the restrictions as arbitrary and not based on actual risk. I think the social scientists and those who think the measures are arbitrary are misguided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 3, 2021 Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 Boris was hinting at even tighter restrictions today while Mr Starmer calling for a full lockdown so it looks likely that will come about before too long. But if that’s the thinking, it doesn’t make much sense in reopening the schools if they’re going to be closed again shortly. Given the severity of the problem, I can’t understand why they just don’t shut the schools now and let the kids play catch up during the summer when the virus will no doubt be less of a problem. If they were to do this, the kids wouldn’t lose out on education time, but we’d have to break an age old tradition of hard and fast summer holiday times. On a separate issue, I see that the latest government health video finally shows how the virus can be spread on the breath rather than just from coughs and sneezes etc. In my opinion this is long overdue and had this been shown earlier, people might have been more accepting of masks. Bill 😊 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 3, 2021 Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 Do you really believe that masks stop the spread of a virus through the air Bill? They might restrict the distance but not stop them spreading through the air. I'm more concerned with spread through hand contact with hard surfaces. I've seen videos of, for example, police officers talking to members of the public and constantly adjusting their masks which drop down. The masks most people wear seem to do this and have to be constantly readjusted, so any virus caught by the mask is transferred to the hand to the next surface touched. waste of time. The masks I wear are snoods which don't slip down or have to be adjusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 Well Asp, if you’d read what I’ve said in the past about this, you wouldn’t need to ask. Clearly there are many ways the virus spreads, but a strict mask regime has been shown to be one of the most effective. Of course the mask gets touched and that’s why we need to wash our hands. The point I was trying to make though is the fact that much of the spread is due to airborne particles and masks do dramatically reduce this, There’s no way on earth we could legislate and enforce hand washing but we certainly could for wearing masks. They do this in the Philippians and they have the lowest figures in the world. Bill 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 What is the point of enforcing mask wearing when people who do wear masks don't wear them properly, or the masks are dirty or inadequate? Do people put on a clean mask every time they go out, or just stuff it in their coat pocket to use the next day? The fact that we have been told at various times that masks are both useless and essential is it any wonder that people are sceptical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, asperity said: What is the point of enforcing mask wearing when people who do wear masks don't wear them properly, or the masks are dirty or inadequate? Do people put on a clean mask every time they go out, or just stuff it in their coat pocket to use the next day? The fact that we have been told at various times that masks are both useless and essential is it any wonder that people are sceptical? Properly made three layer masks give the right information on the packet. They are not expensive, £1 for pack of two at IKEA which can each be washed ten times before disposal. People have been told they offer the wearer little protection and that they provide excellent protection for the non-wearer. Those two consistent messages are not and never have been contradictory. I don't believe that message is what makes people sceptical, they just misquote it as an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer II Posted January 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 Believe everything is back to normal in Wuhan, but maybe it's just a show for the WHO .😷😷 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 28 minutes ago, Confused52 said: Properly made three layer masks give the right information on the packet. They are not expensive, £1 for pack of two at IKEA which can each be washed ten times before disposal. People have been told they offer the wearer little protection and that they provide excellent protection for the non-wearer. Those two consistent messages are not and never have been contradictory. I don't believe that message is what makes people sceptical, they just misquote it as an excuse. Are you denying that we have been told (by the WHO and our own government) at various times that masks are both useless and essential? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, asperity said: Are you denying that we have been told (by the WHO and our own government) at various times that masks are both useless and essential? No but you selectively miss the caveats, for effect natch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 16 minutes ago, Confused52 said: No but you selectively miss the caveats, for effect natch! What caveats are you talking about? I'm saying that back in the spring the WHO was advising (and the government was saying the same) that the wearing of masks was unnecessary and ineffective. They later changed their minds and decided that the opposite was true. So I'm saying that with such flip-flopping of advice from authority is it any wonder that people are sceptical. Personally I wear a mask because it has become socially unacceptable not to, I don't wear it because I think it makes me immune (which was a caveat that the WHO used when they were advising against masks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 10 minutes ago, asperity said: What caveats are you talking about? I'm saying that back in the spring the WHO was advising (and the government was saying the same) that the wearing of masks was unnecessary and ineffective. They later changed their minds and decided that the opposite was true. So I'm saying that with such flip-flopping of advice from authority is it any wonder that people are sceptical. Personally I wear a mask because it has become socially unacceptable not to, I don't wear it because I think it makes me immune (which was a caveat that the WHO used when they were advising against masks). They said that they were not effective in protecting the wearer. That was true then and true now. They also said that they were saying that to protect supplies. There is much said about the subject and the point about supply was also made by Anthony Fauci. I don't think it matters why you do wear a mask, what matters is why some people don't and how to get then to act more responsibly. Giving the excuse that the poor things are confused is not OK. They are not confused at all as far as I can tell from social media, many of them appear to be wilful and disobedient and don't deserve excuses being made on their behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 If the mask won’t stay on Asp then get a better mask or bigger ears. You can’t use what someone said in the distant past as part of an argument when the facts at that time weren’t known. I suppose it explains why the flat earth society are equally confused. Bill 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Confused52 said: They said that they were not effective in protecting the wearer. That was true then and true now. They also said that they were saying that to protect supplies. There is much said about the subject and the point about supply was also made by Anthony Fauci. I don't think it matters why you do wear a mask, what matters is why some people don't and how to get then to act more responsibly. Giving the excuse that the poor things are confused is not OK. They are not confused at all as far as I can tell from social media, many of them appear to be wilful and disobedient and don't deserve excuses being made on their behalf. If I could be bothered I could find you video evidence of Dr Fauci categorically stating that masks should not be worn because they do more harm than good - before he did a volte face of course. He is one of many "experts" who has sent out conflicting messages over the course of this panic. I'm not making excuses for anyone, but most people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds about what rules they want to observe and what they consider "responsible". You seem to be of the opinion that I'm somehow irresponsible even though I spend most of my time in isolation and when I go out I wear a mask when required, and a good one at that - not one of those cheap things that slip off when you talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Bill said: If the mask won’t stay on Asp then get a better mask or bigger ears. You can’t use what someone said in the distant past as part of an argument when the facts at that time weren’t known. I suppose it explains why the flat earth society are equally confused. Bill 😊 I don't have a problem with my mask slipping off because I use a good one. It's called Virustatic - look it up. If the facts at the time weren't known then why did the WHO and our government make these statements as if they were known facts. And knowing how untrustworthy these people are, why should anyone take what they say to be true facts now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 I don’t have any problems with any of the masks Asp, apart from the one made from my wife’s frilly knickers which causes other peoples specks to steam up. 😊 Well if you think back to that time, nobody was exactly sure of how the virus was transmitted and aside from that, there were simply not enough masks to go around. No organisations in their right mind though are ever going to throw the public into a complete state of panic about something they’re not certain about and couldn’t provide answer for, so the case for mask wearing was probably played down. It was only when masks became more widely available that wearing them became more important and until then it was cough into a crooked arm. Bill 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, asperity said: If I could be bothered I could find you video evidence of Dr Fauci categorically stating that masks should not be worn because they do more harm than good - before he did a volte face of course. He is one of many "experts" who has sent out conflicting messages over the course of this panic. I'm not making excuses for anyone, but most people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds about what rules they want to observe and what they consider "responsible". You seem to be of the opinion that I'm somehow irresponsible even though I spend most of my time in isolation and when I go out I wear a mask when required, and a good one at that - not one of those cheap things that slip off when you talk. You don't have to show me that because I saw it at the time. However he really did say that, as did the UK, in order to stop the public getting fired up to buy the limited supply of available masks that the NHS/ US medical facilities needed at the time. The prevention of panic buying if you will. It wasn't completely true but the wording was careful and forgotten by the sceptics. Bill makes a similar point above. I don't think you are behaving irresponsibly at all. I have read what you have said. However you still appear to think that individual will should be allowed to prevail over the common will expressed by government. When I say people should follow the rules you champion their right to disobey. I don't assume that means you disobey, I understand your point of view but, can and do, disagree with it. The reason is that we are engaged in a difficult struggle in which the efforts of everyone of us make a difference. To that extent it is a form of total war. If it had been as a result of a hostile state it would be real war, hence the efforts to downplay the Chinese virus meme. In war you expect restriction on liberty and to be told what to do by the state, and so it is today. I do not agree that those who choose not to play their part out of some form of paranoia or ego trip have a legitimate position. They should certainly not be afforded the same legitimacy or status as what has been decided by the lawful government. You also expect to be lied to about things like masks in the name of the common good. The there is following the science; The science always would have said the same thing - lock everything down and keep it locked down. We would all have starved in weeks and there would be no economy left. ( The Obs position if you like) Government has to do what individuals cannot do for themselves, that is a form of social contract and we pay taxes for the benefits it gives us. That is why it decide the rules and the laws that apply. All I do not accept is that people have the right to undermine the efforts of the majority because of some arbitrary view they hold. (Again I don't apply this to you personally - I see you are holding up the banner for free will) That could not have been tolerated in war time, and it wasn't. I fear that the seriousness of what is going on is underestimated as we reach a highly critical stage of vaccination with prevalence of infection at an all time high. We need it lower very soon as the over 70 cohort who are not in the care home cocoons must expose themselves to risk. Think of it as war, what would you do next. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 As I said bill, I don't have a problem with my mask it was you suggesting that I did!! As for "nobody was sure how the virus was transmitted" it's a corona virus and the liklihood was that it would be transmitted like all the other corona viruses. Your point about there not being enough masks to go round is correct, but to say that wearing them became "more important" when "masks became more widely available" makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 Con, there are obviously 2 schools of thought on this. You are on the side that says that we are in the midst of a war against a deadly disease and need to shut the country down whatever the consequences. The other side is of the opinion that, while the virus is deadly to some vulnerable sections of society, the vast majority of the population could easily weather the pandemic with little harm. Between these extremes most people are just trying to get on with their lives and wishing it would all go away. So while you think people on the other side of the fence to you are irresponsible idiots there are others on the opposition side who think that your stance is irresponsible in wanting to destroy our way of life over a relatively harmless disease. I'm not taking sides because I don't know. Most people don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 25 minutes ago, asperity said: Con, there are obviously 2 schools of thought on this. You are on the side that says that we are in the midst of a war against a deadly disease and need to shut the country down whatever the consequences. The other side is of the opinion that, while the virus is deadly to some vulnerable sections of society, the vast majority of the population could easily weather the pandemic with little harm. Between these extremes most people are just trying to get on with their lives and wishing it would all go away. So while you think people on the other side of the fence to you are irresponsible idiots there are others on the opposition side who think that your stance is irresponsible in wanting to destroy our way of life over a relatively harmless disease. I'm not taking sides because I don't know. Most people don't know. I understand that is the case - the problem is that if you attribute the loss of life consequential to hospitals being full of covid patients it isn't a relatively harmless disease. To get their position to be true you have to positively ignore covid patients so the hospitals are not full. I see that position as resulting from an incomplete analysis of the situation and I know, because I have heard him say it, that what I have just said is agreed by the hated Whitty. On behalf of the other side of the argument how do you counter that analysis without ignoring and leaving the covid patients for dead, because by just ignoring it their number just go up and up? A minor correction - I don't agree with shutting the country down whatever the consequences at all. I urge pragmatism but not wishful thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 The evidence is that the hospitals aren't full of Covid patients and there isn't a larger than normal death rate from respiratory diseases. All we get told is how many cases there are each day without being told that case=positive test, but we aren't told that positive case could be anything from at death's door to no symptoms. I'm no expert, but I've heard a lot of experts who have opposing views to the ones held by the experts the government chooses to take advice from, so I can't do anything but watch and wait. I don't have any power over anyone else in the world, so what I think is of no avail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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