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Separation of Church and State


Chrissy
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Your obviously new to the board Chris; but I've banged on about this on a few topics going back. :roll: Still, something to talk about I guess! :D The wishy washy liberal theory of "diversity", where society would bend over backwards to maintain, indeed promote, seperate development leading to (as is now being recognised) parallel development, has been exacerbated by the idiotic Bliarite notion of reintroducing Religious Schools. :twisted: As if we hadn't learned from the last 30 years in Ulster, the ultimate consequence of such brainwashing. :roll: There should be ONE State Education system, and it should be totally SECULAR; if folk wish to wallow in the primitive mystic of religion, they can do it privately on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday; the public space should be kept secular and devote itself to bringing folk together into ONE cohesive society. :wink:

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Guess I could have done a search first. Never mind.

Setting aside your flowery language, I'm with you all the way. I do feel that religion is very much a personal commitment and it doesn't need to be promoted through the school or political system.

Look what happens when Presidents think they have God on their side!

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  • 4 weeks later...

There you go, another step in public opinion leading to the eventual persecution of Christians in this country.

 

And another sign that democracy is dying.

 

Don't try to silence us. Refute us instead.

 

Besides, you won the votes in Parliament, so why whinge about it?

 

Obbs, I see you are still lying about Northern Ireland. I've handed your backside to you on many occasions over this.

 

I wonder how he accounts for me being taught in a secular school. (Oh, by the way, all the Loyalist terrorists were also educated in secular schools and no brainwashing occurred, as Irish History isn't taught in State Schools, in fact Warrington schools get more of that! :lol: )

 

PS The kids who I knew who became Loyalist extremists were all atheists and hated Jesus because He was Jewish.

 

Still waiting on how the Bridge Street Bombing can be interpreted in the light of Northern Ireland having a 'religious conflict'. The wait will be a long one.

 

Primitive mystic, eh? I'm no mystic, that's MIB's territory, and Theology is the Queen of the Sciences. That's why Dawkins always loses against his fellow Oxford dons who occupy the Theology and Philosophy Chairs and loses against many of his fellows in the scientific faculties.

 

The problem with keeping religion 'personal' is that your personal views will influence your politics. The Church should indeed by neutral political party wise, but cannot be on ethical issues. And to silence it would be undemocratic and prove the Secularists to be the New Inquisition.

 

A true Secular society is one which gains consensus and doesn't trample over any grouping, no matter how odd they appear to be.

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Chrissy, are you saying that members of any religion should be excluded from debate because of their beliefs in case they are guided by some unexplained force?

Do atheists such as yourself (either real or for effect) have a clearer picture?

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Ah yes, the braiwashing of kids into thinking a universe which did not exist can bring itself into existence and when there was no matter or physics or even space, brainwashing kids into thinking all religious people turn violent as soon as they believe there is a God, conspiracy theories about 9/11 inside jobs, and yes, you are right. It does identify the oddballs, as in the secularists who clamped down on discipline leading to kids out of control and mixing human and animal material in embryos! :wink::lol:

 

Oh, and secular education also produced the Loyalist Terrorists in Northern Ireland! :P

 

(As they weren't taught in faith schools.)

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Or even better..

 

Q: What if there was no religion in Northern Ireland?

 

A: The Irish Problem would still exist given it is a political and nationalistic one.

 

Q: What if the Northern Irish were all atheists?

 

A: Dead, as would the rest of the British Isles population because real Christianity acted as a restraint, preventing a real civil war, was an agent of reconciliation and kept ethics in the discussion, plus Communists played a major role in stirring the trouble.

 

Finally, Marxist historians deny that religion played a role, they felt that nationality was used by Capitalist Imperialist Britain was the opiate to distract the people from the bread and butter issues. (In one sense they were right as the housing shortages in the 1960s played a big part in proceedings.)

 

Alas, poor Obbs is out of touch even with his own fellow Socialists! :lol:

 

Interning the Catholic and Anglican Primates of Ireland, as suggested by some atheists, would achieve what?

 

NOTHING

 

All the Loyalist extremist kids I knew were Atheists. They defined 'Protestantism' as Ulster Britishness.

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I would not exclude any voice from the democratic process - religious or secular. My view is simply that the religious opinion should be considered alongside all others, not be given priority because of some distant historical circumstance. Its the 'holier than thou' attitude, whereby some believers assume that the religious stance is automatically the right one, that I struggle with. Historical and contemporary examples of widespread abuse and corruption within all religions demonstrate that no religion has the right to claim the moral high ground.

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Agreed; but it's interesting that psycics, mystics etc. now have to describe themselves as "entertainers" under the trades desciptions act, on the grounds that their powers/beliefs are unproven. :shock: It therefore follows, that likewise, ALL religions should fall within the same category! :wink:

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Including secular humanism, Obbs, and half-misanthropy in your case!

 

Anyway, the Gospel isn't for entertainment. But such is the superficiality of modern life.

 

Chrissy, you are right, the views must be considered alongside others, all part of the ebb and flow of debate.

 

Yip, religious people sin. We all do. (Though I would divorce the truth claims of Christianity from the abuse- two different issues.) After all, religious people killed Jesus. Plus, the anger quite rightly at abuse doesn't contradict a claim of a religion as take the Old Testament, for example. Here the people of Israel indulged in such abuse- and got punished for doing so. (You only have to look at what the prophets had to say on this matter- their message was get back to basics.)

 

"Let God be true and every man a liar."

 

All views provide 'artificial divisions'. But you've snookered yourself in saying that 'religious problems' are in fact politics interfering with religion. That includes those bastions of secularism, China (oh wait- people admire Communist China on this site as does Gordon Brown) and North Korea. Very quiet about Tibet, Obbs? (Non-mystic atheists committing genocide against mystic atheists. Very good. Not.)

 

The gods of the bigots over here are nationalities and flags. So much so that Loyalists have re-defined Protestantism as a secular, political identity of the pro-British and British population of a certain corner of Ireland, in the land of Ulster (including a denial of being Irish).

 

Of course, Chrissy, the thing about equal debates and democracy is that most people think they are right. The trick is attaining consensus. Not easy.

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So what about Tibet Gman? :? Thought China had historic claims to Tibet and the largest Army in the World to back up their claim. :wink: Plus they are now a looming economic power, hence Gordon Brown's dilema in trying to criticise them as nicely as possible, whilst Brown noseing them for their trade. :roll: Meanwhile, territorial integrity appears of no concern to the West either, with military interventions into the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan. :wink:

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Ah, so you think steamrollering Tibet is OK, then?

 

Iraq, certainly. Afghanistan? Unless you mean we want the Opium trade back in our control.

 

Too many people seem to admire China these days. Cowarldy sucking up or are people idiotic gluttons for punishment? Seems to be a swing towards liking tyranny these days.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I agree with Peter's point. We have laiid down and watched China have its way -- and we have laid down and let the Arabs have their way -- and we've become less than we were morally a decade ago. We've laid down to predatory capitalism and a return to serfdom for millions. We've eaten our suppers without concern for those millions we don't see. It's easy - just turn off the TV news.

 

G-man and Obs are idealists in different ways. Both doomed to daily disappointments in our fellow man.

 

Have I mentioned this before? The motto of the baby US government in 1780s was not In God We Trust. It was Mind Your Own Business. The colonies were tired of European politics and religions.

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Gman, who says I don't view the USA in the same light - they invaded Iraq, in just the same way as China invaded Tibet - so no different. :wink: What is different, is that China has the means to see off any military action by anyone in the world - so that's a non-starter. :shock: But it gets worse (or better depending on your predispositions); China is now an economic super-power, owning a large slice of the US National Debt, and has PMs queing up to get trade agreements with them - so I guess sanctions are out too?! :roll: So, any more ideas Gman?! :wink:

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I think Hong Kong might be the key. Can they influence Beijing before Beijing influences Hong Kong?

 

And there is a new power rising in China. A new ideological force which in spite of persecution and harassment, indeed perhaps because of it. A similar force to what helped in some small way to uprooting Communism in Eastern Europe, hehehehehehe. But Obbs, you'll scoff at what it is!!!! :lol: And not a weapon will need to be fired.

 

But yes, Peter, you're darn right there. China are already owning territory in South America, and they have financial footholds here in the UK, and ominously, Gordon Brown praises the Chinese Government as role models and openly wants to imitate them! Given he shares the same ideological roots as me, that is treachery of the highest order. They really should impeach that man. For all sorts of reasons. He's the worst Prime Minister in modern history, and Blair was a howler never mind him. (And the only reason why Blair got Northern Ireland right is because he managed to stick to the process laid down for him by earlier developments which can be traced to John Hume.)

 

China will not be stopped externally. That's for sure. It is becoming the premier world power, which I've realised since I was a kid, it is striding forward economically, it now has a space programme (and they will land on the Moon within 20 years I am sure- the only reason why, sadly, Bush authorised NASA to return to the Moon by c. 2020- so as to beat the Chinese- does that mean the idiot thinks the Apollo missions were hoaxes?! He should watch my beautiful Spacecraft Films DVDs!). No. The Chinese people are the key. They are a lovely, remarkable people, and they will win for us. I'm all for diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China. For trading with them. But lying down and letting them just take over as the UK and South America has- no way, Jose![/i]

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Communism may have been uprooted from Eastern Europe, but its now rerooted in Western europe in the form of the EUSSR. A bloodless take over after all those years of sabre rattling. What a waste. 8)8)8)8)

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it now has a space programme (and they will land on the Moon within 20 years I am sure- the only reason why, sadly, Bush authorised NASA to return to the Moon by c. 2020- so as to beat the Chinese-

 

Perhaps someone told Bush that there is oil on the moon? :wink:

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Still no answers Gman; forget communism, China now operates a corporate system of State Capitalism allowing political control of it's economy, rather than as in the West allowing multi-nationals to have economic control of politics. :shock: Whether this is sustainable in the long term is open to question. :wink:

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