The special relationship ?

[Observer II]

A term conjured up by Churchill (I think), to describe the alliance of the US and UK. The reality however appears somewhat different:  going back to Kissinger, who said, "the US doesn't have friends, it has interests", perhaps a better description; we now have a US President with a firm policy - "America First";  fine if your American, and tired of policing and funding the rest of the world.  So now we've had yet another leak from allegedly - the civil service;  which probably gave an accurate assessment of the White House; which upset Donald; so Donald effectively sacked him.  If a Head of State refuses to deal with an Ambassador, then the Ambassador becomes redundant.   But it hasn't stopped there,  like headless chickens our politicians are running around hand wringing and trying to blame someone - and that someone appears to be Boris (nothing to do with the current leadership election I suppose !).  The fact is, our Ambassador was dead in the water from the moment Trump took to a twitter tirade against him and our PM, so spilt milk.   What imo they should be concentrating on is who leaked the communication,  find them, and make an example of them; in order to bring the rest of the civil service to heel;  as it seems they're out of control at the moment, in the absence of any real political leadership.

[asperity]

Apparently this is nothing new. Our Civil Service has viewed every US administration for the last 100 years or more as incompetent 🤣.

[Davy51]

One of the multitude of BBC Washington correspondents was saying yesterday that the special relation was only talked about when it suits. It seems to me that it is just another one of Trump's outbursts  of bufoonery that will be forgotten about in a week's time. Very strange though that a country obsessed with homeland security should sling sensitive diplomatic mud on twitter.

[Stallard12]

Ambassadors, politicians, Trump has made them all redundant and they don't like it.  He has proved that a business man with a strong personality gets things done.   No point in anyone trying to insult him he doesnt care.  With the absolutely lunatic left ranting and raving idiocy, I thank God every day for Trump.

3 to 3.5% recurring GDP, every one who wants a job has a job, including all minorities, there are 10 million jobs still available, wages across the board have risen dramatically, taxes are lower than ever, interest rates are low and there is no inflation, there are no more Isis beheading videos etc, etc.   Don't tell me we would be better off with a stuffed shirt like Clement Attlee, or George Brown, or Tony Blair - real trailblazers.

Maybe the special relationship has something to do with the white crosses in Normandy.

 

[asperity]

The ex UK Ambassador to the US called President Donald Trump ‘inept’, ‘insecure’ and ‘uniquely dysfunctional’. Surely he was talking about Treason May?

[Observer II]

Just a slight correction Stall;  the reason there are US crosses in Normandy and elsewhere is because of Pearl Harbour; and the reason the US fought in Europe was because Germany declared war on the US on 8th Dec 1941 (big mistake ). The US was probably the only economic beneficery from WW2;  the UK was bankrupt and had to pay back every penny of lend lease.

[Stallard12]

I bet that thought was right at the front of the minds of all of those eighteen and twenty year olds Obs, as they died 4000 miles from home and twenty miles from England.

[asperity]

The truth is that the Yanks came to the aid, not just of Britain, but the whole of Europe. And what thanks do they get? Little from Britain and none at all from the other European countries saved from tyranny. And before anyone raises it I'm not talking about the rich industrialists and politicians who made fortunes out of the conflict, but about your common or garden American boy who sacrificed his life along with countless others to save an ungrateful continent from itself.

[Observer II]

I hate to dispel the romance chaps,  but prior to Pearl Harbour US public sentiment was opposed to involvement in any foreign war, especially in Europe.  Large segments of the population were of German or Italian decent, there was a thriving pseudo-NAZI grouping too.  FDR was elected on the basis that he wouldn't involve the US in foreign wars, whilst trying everything possible to assist the UK, hence lend lease - which of course had to be paid for.  So without Pearl Harbour the US would have stayed out of it.   However, when Pearl Harbour was attacked by the Japanese, something that arguably FDR knew was going to happen as the US had broken the Japanese Naval codes - hence the absence of three vital aircraft carriers at Pearl on the day; everything changed. BUT, the public anger was aimed solely at Japan, but Hitler made things easy for FDR by declaring war on the US.  Even then, senior US military officers argued for the war against Japan to be prioritised;  fortunately Churchill was able to persuade FDR to prioritise the defeat of Germany.  The US being out of bombing range, then became the factory that fed a huge Allied war machine, and set the US economy up for post war dominance..  Those young men Stall. like our young men, were conscripted, so I don't think they had a choice in the matter.  

[asperity]

Nobody, from any of the countries involved, who were conscripted into service "had any choice in the matter". This doesn't alter the fact that without the sacrifice of those young people from accross the Atlantic the outcome could have been very different. There is no "romance" involved, and I know that my parents at least would hear no criticism of the Yanks and their part in the freeing of Europe from tyranny. I think that you're being very cynical Obs by conflating their sacrifice and their country's post war economic dominance, as if that was a deliberate act by them.

[Observer II]

No Asp, just recounting the historical reality;   if any individual should be thanked for the Alliance it would be President Roosavelt, who carefully steered the US popular opinion into a position it may otherwise not have taken.   Just to get sacrifice into perspective - the Russians lost more people at the siege of Leningrad than the total US and UK losses in WW2.

[Stallard12]

Sprechen sie Deutsch ?   Without the US, for whatever reason, your answer would have been yes.

[Observer II]

Actually Stall, it would probably have been Russian.    But I don't for one minute deny that the overwhelming industrial might and man power of the US provided ultimate victory for the Allies;  but the so-called "special relationship" had little to do with it - Pearl Harbour did.

[Evil Sid]

I thought it was John Wayne who won the war.🤠

[asperity]

2 hours ago, Evil Sid said:

I thought it was John Wayne who won the war.🤠

The hell he did 😉.

[Stallard12]

Actually Obs, FDR was willing to have America join the war prior to Pearl Harbor, because he felt that Britain had to survive to be  the base from which to defeat Germany and.  told Churchill so, but he had to protect himself from the anti war lobby led by Charles Lindbergh.  Pearl Harbor gave FDR the tool to overcome that opposition. America could have just fought Japan, there was no need at that time for them to take on Germany too, regardless of any paper war declaration, but they did.

The End , cos a man convinced against his will is n'eer convinced at all.

[Observer II]

Thought that was what I've said Stall;  the gift for FDR was Germany declaring war on the US;  with Germany considered to be the biggest threat to the US, with their development of V-weapons and work on a nuclear bomb.   Isolationism was the prevailing public mood prior to Pearl, and FDR had to tread carefully; however, providing the Soviets  were kept supplied by the US, it would have taken longer, but Germany was doomed, unless of course they could have produced nukes. Just checked the KIA figures for WW2 -  USA less than 500,000; UK less than 500,000;  Japan over 3 million; Germany just less than 9 million;  China 20 million;  Russia 24 million. (youtube)

[P J]

So the UK has a big fall out in Europe,  the USA benefits financially from our situation and the UK gets bankrupted.  

Sounds like history does repeat itself lol

[asperity]

So Russia won the most people killed cup then Obs? Or is there some other message you're trying to get accross?

[Observer II]

Just stating the actual history Asp -  just so folk can get an accurate perspective on things.

[P J]

Observer also decided to omit some countries with much higher casualty counts than both the UK and USA. For instance Poland, India, Rumania, Yugoslavia.  Wonder why?

[Observer II]

just dealt with the main protagonists -  nothing sinister - sorry to disappoint you. 🙄

[P J]

12 hours ago, Observer II said:

sorry to disappoint you. 🙄

apology accepted but not believed.

[Observer II]

exactly right -  🙄

[P J]

On 7/11/2019 at 2:02 PM, Stallard12 said:

ranting and raving idiocy, I thank God every day for Trump.

 

He is simply a racist bigot, misogynist, opportunist and bully.  You may be right to thank God for Trump as no doubt  God gave us cancer and dementia, child mortality and Nascar.