Windrush -

[observer]

Well our PC media have hammered this one for all it's worth, the feigned indignation and hysteria, cloaks the real objective here, and that is to remove what they describe as a "hostile environment" by softening any pretence to an immigration policy. Yes, the Windrush migrants have been badly mistreated, and the situation will require correcting, but not at the expense of a policy. Clearly, the right thing was done, but to the wrong people, and we have to ask just what proof HO needed to establish citizenship.  But don't let this detract from the fact that at least a million illegal migrants have disappeared into the population, and the efforts of HR lawyers, consuming legal aid, are retarding deportations of migrants that simply should not be here.  Add to this, the panic being shown by the EU over the future of 3 million of their citizens; of course they're panicking, as 3 million people returning to the dole queues of Europe, will no doubt put a strain on their reduced budgets. The fact that the 3 million seem to wish to stay in the UK, despite Brexit, appears to be a vote of confidence in our future.      

[fugtifino]

Hurrah!

[observer]

One can see the liberal agenda at work here,  really milk this windrush saga and put the Gov on the defensive, thus weakening their resolve to sort immigration out. Now the liberals are attacking Gov plans to require proof of identity in order to vote, saying it will deter immigrants from voting - well of course it will, if they are here illegally. Still, a good indication of where they expect to get their support from.     

[asperity]

But you can't vote if you're not on the voting register, and I presume you can't register to vote if you're in the country illegally. Or am I presuming some sort of competence on behalf of government?

[observer]

That's the theory Asp; but your last sentence covers it. !   

[Confused52]

Unfortunately there are many people born in the UK who do not drive, or travel abroad but possess no photo ID because they have never needed it. The idea of taking up to date household bills as a means of identification for checking by staff who do not know how to check documents is a disaster waiting to happen and an affront to democracy. 

[observer]

Not sure what your getting at Con, but I'd always been under the impression that we were all on some kind of data base, but evidently not;  and the apparent inability of HMG to introduce viable IT systems hasn't helped.  I recall a Labour Home Secretary, who described the Home Office as "not fit for purpose", floating the idea of ID cards for everyone; which on reflection,  we should have introduced.  I keep coming back to the simple notion, that if everyone was stored on a national computer system, with E-passports, they could be counted in and counted out.  Basically the system used by Cruise Ships, which takes about 30mins to organise when you arrive at the ship.  Alas, it seems to me, that those on the left of politics, prefer no system of ID, making the waters of the electoral system much more muddy and thus open to manipulation.    

[Davy51]

Strange that the  politicos who don't want ID would happily fly the flag for communist & socialist states that are propped up by having tightly run  police states.

[fugtifino]

On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:30 AM, observer said:

One can see the liberal agenda at work here,  really milk this windrush saga and put the Gov on the defensive, thus weakening their resolve to sort immigration out. Now the liberals are attacking Gov plans to require proof of identity in order to vote, saying it will deter immigrants from voting - well of course it will, if they are here illegally. Still, a good indication of where they expect to get their support from.     

This is one of the nastiest initiatives ever enacted by a UK government. Harassing innocent people who are legally resident here and ripping apart the lives of some of them.

It's not any liberal agenda you have to worry about here.

[observer]

Don't think it was a Gov "initiative" to deliberately target W/Indian immigrants, but rather a sound policy that was mis-applied by jobs worths, and compounded by a lack of data; hence the need for a system that accounts for every bona-fide citizen.  There are still an estimated million illegal migrants unaccounted for, with more arriving every day. When caught, the usual routine is to apply for asylum, then the HR lawyers take over at tax-payer's expense in legal aid, and cases drag on for years. There is clearly a case for a system that provides speedy deportation of "illegal" entrants and proper records of ID for legal citizens.     

[Confused52]

6 hours ago, observer said:

, but I'd always been under the impression that we were all on some kind of data base, but evidently not; 

We are all on some kind of database, however the polling clerks do not have access to those and will demand photo ID which many do not have. Failing that you take household bills which the hapless clerk is supposed to be able detect as genuine, because they have obvious seen every kind before, NOT. However if you give a postal vote in an Old Folks have with the help of your local candidate you won't need any ID. Do you get it now, there is an inbuilt Labour bias in this and the tories are introducing it, cretins.

The Windrush landing cards saga was signed off inside the civil service, Alan Johnson was Home Secretary at the time and says he didn't see any request. The significance was well understood by the dome office who put the issue clearly in subsequent immigration act impact assessments. However the DWP and NHS didn't think to read that in writing their own decision making manuals. The DWP ones are a work of art in general and are as clear as mud on most subjects. I suspect this is a classic civil service cock-up and not a heinous conspiracy, However much leftards like Corbyn try to make it the latter.

[observer]

I "got it" a long time ago Con, in fact, I've posted on here about it when discussing postal voting, and how the ethnic vote is delivered; which is why I'm suggesting things need to be tightened up. As for the civil service, like many other organisations, they too appear to operate in silos.    

[asperity]

It appears that, not only in this country, but in the USA voter fraud is endemic and for some obscure reason the left of centre parties are against any form of voter ID being put in place. I wonder why. (When I say left of center parties I include the Tories and the Republican party, otherwise known as RINO).

[fugtifino]

17 hours ago, observer said:

Don't think it was a Gov "initiative" to deliberately target W/Indian immigrants, but rather a sound policy that was mis-applied by jobs worths, and compounded by a lack of data; hence the need for a system that accounts for every bona-fide citizen.  There are still an estimated million illegal migrants unaccounted for, with more arriving every day. When caught, the usual routine is to apply for asylum, then the HR lawyers take over at tax-payer's expense in legal aid, and cases drag on for years. There is clearly a case for a system that provides speedy deportation of "illegal" entrants and proper records of ID for legal citizens.     

Well, once they were aware it was a problem, they didn't deliberately stop targeting them either:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/how-amber-rudd-let-heartbreaking-windrush-suffering-drag-on

It's not just the jobsworths, May carries much of the blame for this:

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/windrush-theresa-may/

[fugtifino]

11 hours ago, asperity said:

It appears that, not only in this country, but in the USA voter fraud is endemic and for some obscure reason the left of centre parties are against any form of voter ID being put in place. I wonder why. (When I say left of center parties I include the Tories and the Republican party, otherwise known as RINO).

"It appears that, not only in this country, ... voter fraud is endemic"

That's a lie for which you have no evidence whatsoever.

[observer]

Listening to some of those affected, it appears some cases go back beyond the tenure of this Tory Gov.        Any PV system is open to abuse. 

[Davy51]

Considering many of the Windrush brigade were invited by the government of the day to come over & help to rebuild the country after WW2  & replenish the depleted workforce you would have thought that permanent citizenship/residency entitlement was a given provided none of them became criminals. Their situation of living in the the West Indies may or may not have  been a result of the slave trade in which Britain played a major part.

I wonder how the situation will affect the thousands of Ugandan Asians who were offered  refuge from Idi Amin & the Vietnamese boat people & the like who were offered a new start in Britain ?

[observer]

Most of this is an historic situation, exacerbated by a lack of holistic data base.  HMG supposed to have updated immigration policy to deal with the current influx.  Whether that "new" policy requires visa applications in the country of origin, in order to get a time limited stay in the UK, I don't know, but imo it should. That would provide a legal method of entry, so no visa or an outdated visa = illegal = deportation.  Not exactly rocket science.     

[asperity]

6 hours ago, fugtifino said:

"It appears that, not only in this country, ... voter fraud is endemic"

That's a lie for which you have no evidence whatsoever.

That's a statement for which you have no evidence whatsoever. I don't know why you have a problem facing reality Fugs.

[observer]

Listening to a CH4 discussion with W/Indians tonight, it seems clear that this problem has been going on since 1948 under ALL parties of Gov; but as if to fly in the face of "lessons learned", the NHS are currently recruiting trained nurses in the W/Indies and elsewhere, thus poaching vital skills from those communities, rather than training indigenous youngsters.  Those that do not learn from history, are destined to repeat it.        

[fugtifino]

17 hours ago, asperity said:

That's a statement for which you have no evidence whatsoever. I don't know why you have a problem facing reality Fugs.

 

I think I have quite a bit more than you do, and that’s because what you’re peddling here is a lie.

In the US, for example, “…it is more likely, …that an American “will be struck by lightning than that he will impersonate another voter at the polls.”

 

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

 

No doubt you’re familiar with Kris Kobach:

“There has been no epidemic of noncitizens voting, despite Mr. Trump’s baseless claim (endorsed by Mr. Kobach) that he lost the popular vote only because of millions of illegal voters.”

https://nyti.ms/2FTkkwP

 

In the UK, a 2014 Electoral Commission report found that:

“…there is no evidence to suggest that there have been widespread, systematic attempts to undermine or interfere with recent elections through electoral fraud.”

 

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/164609/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf

 

A report published by Democratic Audit just last month, found that out of 30 million votes cast at two general elections and the Brexit referendum, only seven people were convicted of voter fraud:

 

http://www.democraticaudit.com/2018/03/08/voter-id-at-british-polling-stations-learning-the-right-lessons-from-northern-ireland/

 

Endemic you say?

Don’t think so.

Still, good Brexiteer that you are, you’ve no compunction about spreading lies in order to achieve your aims.

I don't think I'm the one struggling to face reality.

[asperity]

Fugs, I don't have any "aims" to achieve.

You have no compunction about calling people who you don't agree with "liars" however.

[fugtifino]

7 minutes ago, asperity said:

Fugs, I don't have any "aims" to achieve.

You have no compunction about calling people who you don't agree with "liars" however.

Of course you do - you're pushing the right wing agenda.

You said voter fraud was endemic in both the US and here and that's demonstrably untrue.

Perhaps you could explain why you or anyone would do such a thing.

[asperity]

7 minutes ago, fugtifino said:

Of course you do - you're pushing the right wing agenda.

You said voter fraud was endemic in both the US and here and that's demonstrably untrue.

Perhaps you could explain why you or anyone would do such a thing.

I don't push any agenda, am not a member of any political party or grouping. I don't have to explain myself to you or to anybody else, but if you don't like what I have to say on here I suggest you do the sensible thing and simply ignore me and carry on believing everything the government and the media tells you.

[fugtifino]

It's nothing to do with not liking what you say or just disagreeing with you.

You're wrong about this.

I've shown you that you're wrong about this.

Yet you continue wanting to be wrong. It's as if you want to believe the lies.

Either that's wilful ignorance, or it's for some kind of reason.

Of course you don't have to explain yourself to me, but if you don't then I'm going to form my own opinions.