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Border controls ?


observer

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The "snowflakes" (a generation that melts when things get hot!)were on our TV screens, just after the result of the referendum, crying their eyes out, and complaining that "their futures had been stolen". Some believing that they wouldn't be allowed to travel to Europe again, that showed the limits of their understanding on the issue. Some even believed that EU projects in the UK, came from some magic money tree in Brussels, when the reality was that it was OUR money being recycled, less the cut for the Brussels gravy train.    :rolleyes:

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On 12/4/2017 at 4:19 PM, Togger1 said:

It's a sign of success on here. I am proud of my collection and aim for triple figures really soon :wink:

Good luck with that...many people over the years have scored way lower but never won the special forum prize. 

I wont tell you what it is as that would spoil the surprise for you.  

No cheating though..you have to win it legitimately and big brother will be watching ha ha :ph34r::lol:
 

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6 hours ago, Dizzy said:

Good luck with that...many people over the years have scored way lower but never won the special forum prize. 

I wont tell you what it is as that would spoil the surprise for you.  

No cheating though..you have to win it legitimately and big brother will be watching ha ha :ph34r::lol:
 

Damn, I tried giving myself the red mark of pride but it doesn't let me.

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On 02/12/2017 at 8:21 AM, Togger1 said:

Not all the Irish are animals :wink: If a hard border needs building and as you suggest the EU have to build it, they can and would simply add the cost to our bill.

I wasn't referring to the Irish people as 'animals' just an analogy Togger. :rolleyes:

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Seems events are overtaking the original topic (surprise !), a "deal" has been reached on the first phase of the negotiations (the divorce), some of us would describe it as a sell out.   Now we've got the second phase on trade talks, which the EU has warned will be even harder.  The negotiations have certainly been a triumph of ambiguity, with the term "convergence" replacing customs union, in order to allow a fluid border in Ireland.  How this gets us over the EU policy of having hard borders with non-EU countries, and how not quite being in the customs union, which prevents separate trade deals by members states, helps, we've yet to see.     :ph34r: 

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The actual report does not really say that as far as I can see. I am increasingly annoyed that the reporting of this news story is descending into propaganda. My reading of the report is that the arrangements for the Irish Border are that the Common Travel Area is retained. Ireland is not part of Schengen anyway, it can't turn away EU nationals but they will not be able to draw benefits or be employed in the UK without a work permit or leave to remain if they were not already resident here at the point of leaving.

Turning to the matter of tariffs, the report says:

"The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement."

This I read as explicitly saying that the final deal is not yet done. The fall back is that if nothing better is achieved and there is a deal then the rules will be applied only as necessary to maintain the "internal market" within the island of Ireland. This is not the same as staying in the Customs Union or the Single Market in any way. This is definitely not agreeing to a soft brexit.

Further, the whole report is subject to the caveat that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed", which means that is the proposals are not acceptable the option absolutely exists to just walk away. The suggestion that the current position is capitulation to a soft brexit or continuous membership of Customs Union , Single Market  etc or control by the ECJ is quite false on my reading of the report. It looks to me like a  step towards sense by the EU, not that you will hear that on the BBC.

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As you say, "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed",  but I'm afraid this ambiguity says all things to all men.   EU nationals and illegal migrants will be able to enter the UK via the Irish border, and then disappear off the radar, as they do now.  In the case of existing EU nationals, it appears they will have the protection of the ECoJ, so we won't have left that either.   Maintain "full alignment" is just another phrase for remaining in the Customs Union imo.  This has to get through 29 Parliaments, each one having a veto, so whether it makes it or not, will be interesting.      :ph34r:

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42 minutes ago, observer said:

 In the case of existing EU nationals, it appears they will have the protection of the ECoJ, so we won't have left that either.  

Maintain "full alignment" is just another phrase for remaining in the Customs Union imo.  This has to get through 29 Parliaments, each one having a veto, so whether it makes it or not, will be interesting.      :ph34r:

On the first point I can't find that anywhere in the report. At the point of withdrawal the ECJ ceases to have any direct role unless a UK court asks the ECJ for an opinion on the interpretation of the European Law, including case law, as it exists immediately before withdrawal. Such requests to the ECJ may only be made for 8 years after leaving and only if the court believes it needs assistance in interpretation. The decision in the case of course remains one for the UK court, the ECJ has no jurisdiction.

The phrase "full alignment" appears only once in the report, and the statement was in my last post in full, the significant part was - "full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, ....support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement" To be clear the alignment point relates only to Ireland. I can see the main significance as in the case of no subsequent better agreement the UK will not apply tariffs that discriminate against Ireland which we agreed not to do in the Good Friday agreement.

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According to TV news reports;   all current EU nationals will have access to the ECoJ  as a protection and this has been accepted by HMG.   Who, where will goods be checked to identify products originating in S/Ireland and those originating elsewhere in the EU ?          :ph34r:

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The only access mentioned in the report is that the EU can intervene in UK court cases. That is of course the legal meaning of being an intervener in terms of giving evidence on behalf of the EU citizen party, the court that decides is the UK one not the ECJ. Were the TV reports on the BBC by any chance, which is usually remoaner central. The goods issue is really about protecting imports and exports which go to the EU via the UK which is most of them and has been frightening the Irish from the day the referendum was announce. So the checking is by looking at the electronic documents for shipments, you know what the government said from the start. I recommend reading the text yourself as the media are just not reliable or impartial.

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Obs, I believe Davy may have been referring to the carnet system for cross border goods transport between Norway and Sweden which I think was needed for alcohol as the rates of duty are quite different but both high compared to here. Hence the reference to TIR, it was not about the EEA membership which even Barnier accepted was not going to happen the other day in a Press Conference.

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Just been reading a piece on s/media, suggesting "international pressure" on the EU, not to give the UK a bespoke deal. What it probably amounts to, is EEA members objecting to the UK getting a better deal than they currently have.  Whilst we're all operating in the realms of speculation, I keep coming back to the logical position that the EU must adopt in order to keep the rest of it's members from leaving too;  and that simply means that we have to be seen to be getting a (much) worse deal than membership, amounting imo to a humiliation.  If true, this suggests that "no deal, really is better than a bad deal", as a bad deal is all that can be achieved.       :ph34r:

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I was indeed just referring to cross border traffic. Perhaps a way of differentiating between UK /NI citizens travelling across the Irish Sea & non UK citizens would be to request that UK National Insurance id is added to ferry & aircraft tickets or some other form of bar coded id could be issued to all  UK/NI citizens for travel purposes & easily readable from travel tickets by scanner. Any non UK/NI citizens could easily be identified at point of departure or entry.

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