Proof -

[observer]

If proof were needed as to the incompetence and naivity of EU leaders, the latest deal with the four faced Turks should be enough.  In return for taking back migrants BUT replacing them one for one; AND 6 million Euros; the Turks will get visa free entry into the EU and a promise of early Membership. So as well as of 20million Syrians, Afghans and God knows what else; we give free access to 75 million Turks.  If folk are prepared to vote to stay in this asylum, they deserve everything they're going to get.  

[Davy51]

What sort of basket case are we involved in Obs?   Hopefully,all right thinking voters will vote to leave.

[observer]

Well, economically Turkey is a "basket case" comparable to Greece; but perhaps of more concern, a political basket case with a theocratic authoritarian Government that doesn't come anywhere near the democratic or human rights standards claimed by the EU. True, it has been hosting over 2 million migrants to date at an alleged cost of 10 million euros; however, that funding and the provision of migrant facilities could or should have been provided by the UN, over 5 years ago.  Since then, the Turks have turned a blind eye to the illegal movement through and from their country, and we're just discovering that they actually have a Coast Guard Service.  No, this has been a deliberate and calculated move, to extract promises and concessions from gullible EU leaders. It doesn't even please the bleeding hearts, who are claiming, with some justification, that such a mass deportation is illegal in international law. Now that many of the Balkan routes have been blocked, by countries frantically trying to secure their borders; the migrant exodus is switching back to Libya and Italy.  As we know, the Italians were the first to fail to carry out the Dublin Convention by holding migrants for asylum hearings, and returning those that failed. Instead, they waved them on through Italy, Austria and into Germany; where Mutti Merkel invited them in, suspending the Dublin Convention. So, we've got an organisation that's totally disorganised, that had policies, but chose to disregard them; that claims unity, but when push comes to shove, it's every member for themselves. That takes months, even years, to address issues, and fails any decisive action through the fudge  they paint as compromise.  The problem is, that rather than looking at what is, and what has been, the case with the EU, where facts can be employed; we're stuck with scaremongering speculation as to what will be in the future.   

[Davy51]

Unless the root cause of at least the refugee crisis is sorted out by stabilising Syria then rampant migration will continue. At least what migrants are left then should be of the economic type.

[observer]

Unfortunately Dave, ceasing wars won't cut it in the future; this is about economic migration; the search for "a better life"; and will continue to be stimulated by an attractive picture of life in Europe, thanks to access to global communications technology. Plus, it will be forced by natural disasters and climate change; famine, droughts etc. So we're back to the basic life boat analogy; do we let them clamber aboard and risk sinking or do we defend our shores?

[TomcatComputers8]

I'm defo on the leave view, i think its on the cards already as i'm noticing alot of big companies

currently planning to move to the UK...

 

There is Boeing and at-least two others.

[Davy51]

Surely the most logical solution is to try to make the countries equally prosperous & self sustaining, providing the various  magnates are willing to share there monopolies with them. All these regions are excellent opportunities for development if the will is there.

Tragically though many of the countries have been left in a parlous state by their former colonial masters.

[observer]

Under British Colonial Rule; Uganda was the bread basket of E/Africa; under Mugabe it is now an economic basket case.  Dane Geld is being paid to Third World Countries in the form of Overseas Aid; question is, does it get to the people to help build a self sustaining economy, or is it pilfered by corrupt politicians?     

[Davy51]

I think the British did leave its colonies better placed for self government than our European friends with better infrastructure. It is just a pity their choice of post Empire leaders was wrong in many cases.

[observer]

It took England over 300 years to develop a liberal democracy, relatively corruption free, yet still anachronistic in terms of it's institutions; so how we expect third world nations steeped in religious superstitious culture to evolve into liberal democracies within decades is rather strange. In India, they have a caste system, and even kill people who marry out of it; some can't eat beef and allow cattle to roam anywhere, whilst others won't eat pork. Whilst they have educated elites who will embrace modernism, unfortunately they have uneducated majorities who haven't escaped a medieval mentality. So how many of these populations will reach the kind of living standards we enjoy, may take a while. Meantime, their young folk may not be prepared to wait, and merely start walking towards the Golden Domes of Constantinople.

[Davy51]

Apparently there is a programme on ITV tonight at 10 40 about the workings of Saudi Arabia. It is supposed to be a revealing programme about the darker side of one our main trading partners which seems to have more than tentative links to international Arab terrorism.

[Davy51]

The programme ,shot secretly, revealed some of the dark underbelly of our favourite oil provider. Public beheadings on a near industrial scale, people disappearing,public floggings & the general population repressed & living in near squalor. Women are definitely second class citizens & open to all kinds of abuse.

 

The programme alleged that Saudi Arabia is the paymaster behind Al Qaeda & IS & that many of its police are trained in Britain, particularly in crowd control methods.

This from a country we class as friendly...it will be interesting to see what happens when the oil runs out & Britain & the west no longer needs to "kiss ass".

[observer]

Didn't watch it Dave, but did it include the funding of Madrassas throughout Europe, where the Ultra-Conservative form of Sunni Islam is taught and furnished with their propaganda?

[Davy51]

There was a medieval form of Islam mentioned called Wahhabism that is extreme & is followed by certain arabs ,Al Qaeda & IS. 

 

Apparently, Saudi has been criticised again today for its actions in Yemen where British made bombs have been used against ground targets.

[observer]

One has to be cynical to understand it !

[Lt Kije]

Obs

As you know but are not telling people is that leaving the EU would not stop EU immigration as we would have to join EFTA, and all EFTA Countries are bound by the free movement of Labour. Leaving will just cost jobs and inward investment. If you're going to make it about immigration, the least you could do is tell the truth.

Stop lying

[observer]

So you've just made something up, and accuse me of lying ! If we exit the EU. we wouldn't "have" to join anything else, except on our own terms, and one of those terms would be visa requirements for all foreign entrants to the UK. However, it wouldn't solve the immigration threat in itself, we would then require Governments with the strength of will to reinforce the UKBF, withdraw from the ECHR Treaty and modify our laws to permit speedy deportations of illegal aliens.

[Lt Kije]

No Obs, So you are advorcating we leave the EU and not join EFTA?

 

You would not have us in the free trade zone at all.

 

An even bigger impact on jobs

 

All EFTA, countries are subject to free movement of labour,

 

Norway ect

[observer]

As I said, any strong Government in the UK would sign up to trade links with anyone, providing it suited us, which means "free movement of labour" wouldn't be part of the deal.  Let's get this right; the EU Treaty allows the free movement of labour, which implies that all free movers have a job to go to. The reality is it means the free movement of people, to head for the country with the best social benefits, be they in work benefits or out of work benefits; far in excess of the wages and benefits available in their home countries. The other aspect to this "free movement" saga, is the ease with which terrorists have moved to Syria to join ISIS, then returned to bomb our cities; playing on the naivity and incompetence of EU Governments. The first duty of any State is to protect it's citizens and secure it's National territory; something continental countries couldn't manage in 1940, and apparently can't do now. While your on about "free trade zones", what you actually mean is restricted trade zones, restricted to those involved and imposing tariffs on outsiders. So your poor Africans and Asians can't trade on equal terms with us; although looking at what we can buy; being out of the EU doesn't seem to keep their goods off the supermarket shelves !  

[Lt Kije]

Just to be straight Obs, you are saying no to the EU and No to EFTA?

On the security part of your statement, All our present security leaders say we are better in. I no you don't like it as they are not agreeing with you, but tough, I think you will agree they know more than you. 

Free trade zones are only free trade zones for the members of those free trade zones Obs, always have been.

The UK left the common wealth to join the Common Market as it was not working for them, They joined the common market which did.

[observer]

Our military security is invested in NATO not the EU.  All police forces co-operate throughout Europe regardless of EU membership, we co-operate with the US and Australia - so nothing to do with EU membership.  An ex-Head of the CIA has gone on record as saying that the EU has confounded anti-terrorist action,(as exemplified by the sloppy police work in the recent Brussels incident) - and yes he knows more than I do!    It wasn't long ago that you were bleating on here about the poor African Countries not being able to sell their goods due to EU tariffs, despite which, their goods still find their way onto our supermarket shelves as do Korean made cars into our car showrooms. So yet more scaremongering.  As for the Commonwealth; we did have a reciprocal arrangement, with commonwealth countries sending us raw materials in return for finished products; but that all ended when we entered the EU consisting of similar economies to our own, so not reciprocal but rather competitive. So let's skip the speculation and the threat of the four horsemen visiting death and destruction upon us; just look at what has and is happening with the EU. 1.2 million migrants allowed in, the Dublin Convention ignored by Greece and Italy and suspended by Mad Mutti Merkel - drinking sessions and breweries spring to mind. Over 2million EU migrants and a similar number (though many aren't even on Gov radars) of non-EU migrants, all receiving in work benefits for those that have jobs, and loading our public services with additional demand, at a time of so-called austerity - crazy.  All this the result of weak centerist  Govs, that have failed in Europe and the US; and the public are finally getting wise to it. 

[observer]

.

[Lt Kije]

Ex head of the CIA been left about 10 years, all our security chiefs MI5,6 and all the Police say its better for us in. Korean car manufacturers pay a tariff to get their cars here Obs.

 We left the Common Wealth as it no longer worked for British manufactures, not enough demand for our products as we could not compete with the Americans on cost, We turned our back on the common wealth for purely economic reasons

[observer]

Heads of any Gov Dept would say that wouldn't they - they're towing Camoron's line. We turned our backs on the commonwealth in the belief we could actually out-trade similar economies like France and Germany; the whole foundation of "trade" is the exchange of goods and services, lacking to one or other of the traders. But again, let's talk about was has and is happening with the EU, rather than the speculative scaremongering that the pro-EU lobby are relying on - project fear.

[Lt Kije]

So Obs you are saying all the heads of our security services are putting their knighthoods above public safety, I repeat all