EU - in or out?

[P J]

So you plan to terminate illegal immigration? Thank heavens nobody listens to you and your awful jingoistic nonesense goes absutely unheard. Your opinion, the same as mine, is  meaningless in the big scheme of things, the difference being I don't live in a fantasy world of self importance.  Do you actually think your plans and schemes actually mean squat,  here's a newsflash they don't as you are nobody.  As for solid facts, please tell me exactly what the trade plans are after a Brexit?  None of the Murdoch puppets seem able or willing to.

[observer]

Still, not one FACT is support of EU membership, just more speculation that the world's 5th largest economy can't survive without the EU. Well perhaps no one listens to anyone on this forum, which makes one wonder why you still live on it; but from the response to-date, they're certainly not listening to you ! 

[P J]

and you simply speculate that something will magically appear to replace all the agreements we have in place now, but without us having to contribute a penny.  Absolute fantasy land but it doesn't matter as it won't be your job to sort out the crap.   Simply put, you want everyone in Britain to put everything they have ever worked for down as a bet on a scheme you can't define and have no idea how it will perform but because you don't much care for foreign folk it must be the right thing to do, we are British after all and therefore far superior.  Perhaps some people, British people, aspire to a greater life than mere survival.

[P J]

Well perhaps no one listens to anyone on this forum, which makes one wonder why you still live on it; 

 

37,626 and rising. I suppose once you lost your job, any shred of respect and sense of purpose, this was all that was left.

[observer]

All that exists for you it seems; given your now living on it: the difference is, I'm not calling the forum, you are !     Now if you've finished the infantile digressions, perhaps you could supply some pro-EU argument, if you can find any. 

[P J]

right after you disclose the quitters plans for after we leave the EU .  You see up to now you just keep telling me to trust you, Donald Trump, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and shed loads of racists,  I know its a pain but care to explain exactly what trade deals we have in place for apres quittage and what concessions we will have to make in order to establish them.  You have tons of time on your hands so no rush.

[observer]

Inane question, given (as I keep saying), the future is unknowable; but after the vote (assuming Brexit), we would still be a member of the EU, so all existing trade arrangements would remain in place. There would then be a period of negotiated disengagement, which by definition would depend on the negotiations.  However, I've read some blogger's suggestion, that in the event of a Leave vote, we would suddenly get some attractive offers to remain, even the scrapping of the free movement rule;  and Tusk's changed tone (lot less arrogant), indicates such a climb down could be possible, as I think they've now recognized that Brexit would lead to the break up of the EU, as other countries are already looking for an EU referendum. Alas that's speculation, just as any pronouncements on future trade deals would be - so the short answer is, no one knows.    

[P J]

Inane question, given (as I keep saying), the future is unknowable; but after the vote (assuming Brexit), we would still be a member of the EU, so all existing trade arrangements would remain in place. There would then be a period of negotiated disengagement, which by definition would depend on the negotiations.  However, I've read some blogger's suggestion, that in the event of a Leave vote, we would suddenly get some attractive offers to remain, even the scrapping of the free movement rule;  and Tusk's changed tone (lot less arrogant), indicates such a climb down could be possible, as I think they've now recognized that Brexit would lead to the break up of the EU, as other countries are already looking for an EU referendum. Alas that's speculation, just as any pronouncements on future trade deals would be - so the short answer is, no one knows.    

 

and you would like me to gamble my business, house , savings and everything else I hold dear, including my children futures,  on a complete unknown?  Therein lies the quitters masterplan. No thanks.

[P J]

is this you Observer?  Spouts the same sort of nonsense .  I posted this before but it never stops making me laugh.

 

https://youtu.be/TQRg7wH_FC0

[Evil Sid]

[observer]

You don't actually believe that the EU offers a secure future do you ?   How gullible is that ?!   50% unemployment in Greece and Spain, France on the verge of a financial crisis;  and a now permanent flood of migrants to take up school places, hospital and GP resources, and housing; and you have the gall to talk about your children's futures. Still not to be unexpected from one who can't even tell when tar-mac needs re-laying !   ..... and the latest fact to emerge from the current shambles, is that we're keeping over 13,000 migrants, including many from EU countries, in our prisons; with little or no effort being made to deport them; yet another drain on the UK tax-payer.   

[P J]

You don't actually believe that the EU offers a secure future do you ?   How gullible is that ?!   50% unemployment in Greece and Spain, France on the verge of a financial crisis;  and a now permanent flood of migrants to take up school places, hospital and GP resources, and housing; and you have the gall to talk about your children's futures. Still not to be unexpected from one who can't even tell when tar-mac needs re-laying !   ..... and the latest fact to emerge from the current shambles, is that we're keeping over 13,000 migrants, including many from EU countries, in our prisons; with little or no effort being made to deport them; yet another drain on the UK tax-payer.

Is the lack of effort to deport criminals down to the EU or to our own Government?

 

Immigrants from the EU have been shown to be paying in over £2billion a year directly, a fact you always overlook so nothing new there.  Many EU immigrants are  NHS workers ( including doctors and nurses), builders, and work within education.

 

Like Gove last night you are asking me to go against the advice of every respected economic body, world leaders , industry leaders, financial institutions et al on the blind unsubstantiated guess that we will be better off severing our links with the worlds biggest trading block. How do we fill that huge void?   He was even forced to admit that job losses were likely. He and you are completely devoid of any substance to back your claims.     If you are stupid enough to back the hunch of a rag tag bunch of xenophobes, boozers, failures, political opportunists and racists thats understandable but anyone with any sense can see through the thin tissue of lies, half truths and jingoistic sound bites being offered by the quitters.

 

 

p.s.  I think you will find it was you who got the tarmac situation wrong, well as always you assumed to know better than everybody else, even the experts, with nothing to back up your claims but utter guesswork, sound familiar?

[Davy51]

Perhaps any job losses could be covered by repatriating European workers & placing our own people in the created vacancies.

 

It isn't that leavers are racist, leavers can see that us among other northern European countries are suffering by having to take in immigrants who want to dine from our table. The EU is like a big fan with the poorer countries expanding out from the more prosperous handle & unfortunately that poor fan is going to get bigger putting more load on the handle. Luckily ,we now have a chance to get out of this mess that has not been helped by the single currency fiasco.

 

The only long term solution is not migration, but to ensure that economies & living standards throughout the EU are standardised ,but single currency is not the answer.

[P J]

Perhaps any job losses could be covered by repatriating European workers & placing our own people in the created vacancies.

 

 

 

seriously?  that's your plan?  

[observer]

Look Dave, according to the liberal luvvies, anyone who relies on common sense and not their bleeding heart indoctrination is a racist bigot. That's a catch all, shout down that helps them avoid the issues under discussion.     SO - in order to service the growing demand in our NHS fuelled by migration, we import even more migrants to supply the labour, to meet that ever growing demand - well the boat will well and truly be full to overflowing on that basis. And your still regurgitating the myth of migrant labour paying huge amounts of tax to support our besieged public services; when the clear majority are in menial jobs and in receipt of tax credits, so won't be paying any tax; not to mention of course those in the black economy. The latest estimates of migrant income levels, were that 80% of EU migrants wouldn't qualify on the income test for a visa currently issued to non-EU migrants.   We've got cash strapped Councils, who can't even afford to cut the grass nowadays; having to supply housing to increasing migrant demand, school places (and interpreters) for their kids. As for the self interest of esteemed international institutions, that got it wrong in 2008; well your unreserved faith in "the experts" speaks for itself. The IN campaign has now completely given up on countering the migration argument, because they have no intention of tackling it; in fact quite the opposite, they'll invite the world in, without any plan to deal with the demand.     

[Davy51]

seriously?  that's your plan?  

 

Yes, excellent idea don't you think ? We can then get many of our workers who are currently employed part time off benefits  & back into more meaningful employment without the need to claim a benefit top up & in turn becoming net contributors to the newly liberated UK's new found wealth. Workers actually on the living wage without benefit dependency,how good does that sound ? Sounds like the booming British economy of 40 years ago to me ,before successive governments took us successively into EU serfdom.

[P J]

Yawn been listening to that same old dogma for years now. There will be some migrants not earning enough to pay tax, they are accounted for in the figures, is that so difficult for you to grasp? If so it explains why you can't get your head around the harm leaning the EU will do to our economy. I don't call you a bigot because it's a catch all, I call you a bigot because of your vast history of bigoted comments

[observer]

Some? 80% according to the latest estimates, don't earn enough to warrant a visa under current non-EU visa rules.  The economy?  Well I keep hearing this tripe being dished out about "the single market" and how, outside the EU we couldn't sell into it.  As you reminded us on another topic, we can't escape buying "foreign" (non-EU) goods from the shops or car showrooms, and we're in the EU !   So complete fiction from the EU sheep. Next they'll come up with the tariff barrier frightener;  as if tariff barriers don't work both ways, and as if VW, Mercedes, Pugeot etc aren't gagging to get their cars into UK showrooms. btw Calling folk  racists is standard practice by the young luvvies, even though they don't have any understanding of racial groupings, perhaps that wasn't included in their school curriculum !     .

[P J]

Yes, excellent idea don't you think ? We can then get many of our workers who are currently employed part time off benefits  & back into more meaningful employment without the need to claim a benefit top up & in turn becoming net contributors to the newly liberated UK's new found wealth. Workers actually on the living wage without benefit dependency,how good does that sound ? Sounds like the booming British economy of 40 years ago to me ,before successive governments took us successively into EU serfdom.

 

stupid, naive, fantasy, choose any of those to replace excellent davy.  Tell me this what will you do with over a million Brits returning from working and living in other EU countries?  Unless you expect them to be allowed to stay if we start deporting EU migrants.

[P J]

Some? 80% according to the latest estimates, don't earn enough to warrant a visa under current non-EU visa rules.  The economy?  Well I keep hearing this tripe being dished out about "the single market" and how, outside the EU we couldn't sell into it.  As you reminded us on another topic, we can't escape buying "foreign" (non-EU) goods from the shops or car showrooms, and we're in the EU !   So complete fiction from the EU sheep. Next they'll come up with the tariff barrier frightener;  as if tariff barriers don't work both ways, and as if VW, Mercedes, Pugeot etc aren't gagging to get their cars into UK showrooms. btw Calling folk  racists is standard practice by the young luvvies, even though they don't have any understanding of racial groupings, perhaps that wasn't included in their school curriculum !     .

EU migration nets the Treasury £2 billion a year,  including all EU migrants.  Its not hard to get your head round if you just broaden your mind a touch.  Pointing out racism and bigotry is an ethical duty to most decent minded folk.  

 

Your 80% figure, where did you drag that whopper from?  You do know that a person pays tax on earnings OVER £11,000.  To warrant a visa you need to be earning over £20,000.  Nice try at statistical manipulation though but you can't just bullshit anymore, we have Google .   :D

 

 

here is a link to my side of the story,  lets be having yours, unless you are lying.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

[Davy51]

I am  sure there will be ample jobs for anyone who wants to return in our new prosperous economy.

[P J]

I am  sure there will be ample jobs for anyone who wants to return in our new prosperous economy.

 

and I am sure you are the most stupid person I have encountered whilst discussing the Referendum, and believe me, that takes some doing.  Although to be fair, I haven't had the chance to chat with Boris the cheat or Nigel the drunk yet.

[observer]

Only needed to look where your google came from, to recognize it as luvvie propaganda. Listening to you, we'd think all migrants are throwing money at the HMRC; the reality is only a small amount from a small amount; if they've tapped the Oligarchs for £2billion fine, nice to see the HMRC doing it's job. But I doubt our local car washers are in that bracket ! Well at least your making the effort to put up an argument, even if you can't avoid the insults.  

[Davy51]

Do you really, think PJ that EU countries are childish enough to repatriate contributors to their economies in a tit for tat manner. These are people that genuinely contribute to the economies of these countries for the simple reason that if they did not work or were otherwise self financing then they would starve. The European counterparts don't throw benefits about to foreigners with the same gay abandon as our government.

[P J]

Only needed to look where your google came from, to recognize it as luvvie propaganda. Listening to you, we'd think all migrants are throwing money at the HMRC; the reality is only a small amount from a small amount; if they've tapped the Oligarchs for £2billion fine, nice to see the HMRC doing it's job. But I doubt our local car washers are in that bracket ! Well at least your making the effort to put up an argument, even if you can't avoid the insults.  

 

you deserve insulting, are you going to say now that you don't do it yourself?  Is it just me who isn't allowed to use insults in the discussion?  Do you have a special, insult away card , yet you get all pissy pants when you get some back?  Anyhow back to the facts.  What is the national Living wage?  is it £7.20 for 25 year olds and over ( majority of immigrant workers fall into this category) ?????

 

If the living wage is £7.20 and the standard week is 37.5 hours,  does that take a worker above the £11000 threshold of the personal  allowance.  ( I will help you out here as you are so nice,  it does)

 

So where are we now?  All immigrant workers over the age of 25 are paying tax if their UK employer is legal and above board.  Many immigrant workers ( over a fifth) are earning a minimum of £20K  and thats using your figures.  

 

How do you like those figures Mr. Bullshit?