EU - in or out?

[P J]

opinions mean squat, you can spout crap all year and put it down to opinion thats a cowardly argument

[asperity]

Is that your opinion PJ, or a proven fact? Just asking

[observer]

    Sounds like an opinion !       However, let's look at the opinion of these independent global institutions: the IMF was quoted as if Brexit would mean the end of the world and the collapse of the global economy. What they were actually saying was that Brexit could exacerbate an already destabilised global financial situation. Most economist believe that we are in for a period of low growth to the point of recession; some even predict another financial crash, if this is the case, it will happen to all economies, including the EU, not just the UK. So in a world where everyone is looking after their own best interest (certainly China and the US), it would seem that an independent UK is best placed to look after British interests. As we've seen from the Steel saga and the migrant exodus, the EU doesn't do too well in protecting the interests of individual States.  Moving on to tariffs, the big threat to our exports to the EU; 1) This doesn't appear to affect goods being imported from non-EU countries at the moment and 2) Do we really imagine for a second that Mercedes, VW, Fiat etc; would really support counter tariffs on their sales to the UK?  Taking the US as an example: their response to Chinese steel dumping was to hit them with a 148% tariff, no summits in Brussels with a load of hand wringing, instant response in the interests of the US. What were seeing with the EU, is the gradual progress of a plan to homogenise Europe into a super State; without any democratic accountability of it's Executive (none of the Mandarins from the President to the host of EU Ministers are elected, all are appointed); so not accountable to the Plebs.  The original signing of the Treaty of Rome by Ted Heath was done without a referendum, and each Treaty since has been signed off without any democratic input; the last one in Lisbon; was perhaps so embarrassing for Gordon Brown that he turned up a day late to miss the photo call ! 

[Freeborn John]

Talking of Lisbon, when Ireland got a referendum in 2008 on the Treaty of Lisbon (an EU power grab) the vote didn't go in favour of the European Union commissars, the Irish turfed it out.

EU funding to the country was turned off like a tap, the Celtic Tiger started to turn blue.

In another referendum on the same treaty in 2009, the Irish changed their minds and conceded to the EU, the money started to flow again.

That's democracy, European Union style.

[Milky]

"UK will be in the back of the queue" With friends like the yanks who needs friends?

 

It is quit hard to understand the US's pro EU stance as the EU has been quit anti American, however  Obama wants to bring in his trade treaty TTIP which will become even harder without the UK.

 

 Obama has been a very on the fence presidents and was elected to be isolationist. While Russia and Korea (North) has become increasingly threatening he has been touring the world lecturing on gay rights.

[Milky]

It strange that we are in the EU but can't take my sky recorder when I go abroad, so I can watch English TV, how I need to pay fees if I use the ATM or debit card, I can't get my relatives to send me a box of vodka or buy a carton of cigarettes on the net (although I neither smoke or drink so no real need to). When I choose to move abroad I need to pay taxes for the car I take, or if I want to transit some countries I need to pay tax. When I take my motor caravan to some places I need to buy and apply for green permits. I could probably extend the list but I can't think just now.

 

However speeding fines, I will soon have to pay them.

 

Already I have had fines from Poland (for entering a restricted street) and France (speeding 5kms on a motorway) but apparently for now I can ignore them, until next year.

 

I used to be in transport and while the EU had got read of a lot of red tape on boarders getting round Europe is getting for ever harder in a commercial vehicle, Sunday bans, Saturday bans, holiday bans, day time bans, night time bans, environmental levees, taxes, tolls, each country, region then city have different rules, tariffs, times, it is a joke.

[Davy51]

If nothing else, EU membership has shown some of the newer members how to make money from the man in the street.

 

Amazingly, America ,which is quite happy for the UK to surrender its sovereignty to the EU flatly refuses to pay the London congestion charge as it believes the charge is an affront to the sovereignty of the US.

[observer]

Another interesting aspect to the mess that is the EU; is the assumed position of Frau Merkel, in negotiating a migrant deal with the four faced Turks. Seems she speaks on behalf of the whole of Festung Europa; problem of course is, that it's no longer a festung ! But the deal, to just allow Syrian refugees through and send back the rest, includes the opening up of visa free entry to over 70million Turks; so that they can off load their unemployed onto us. The threat from the Turks of course is, no deal and we'll keep allowing the world to walk through Turkey to Europe. Meanwhile, we now have a new assault on the Libyan front, with a unstable Country run by three factions, including ISIL with around 10,000 Jihadi nutcases; launching a fresh invasion of Sicily; who's Merkel going to do a deal with in Libya?

[Davy51]

That unfettered migration thing must be part of the German psyche ,they do it in bus queues,restaurant queues & they did it on wholesale terms in the the two world wars when they didn't respect borders then either.

[observer]

The Germans have a history of importing foreign labour, millions of slave labourers were transported to the Fatherland in WW2 to save the House Fraus getting their hands dirty; and then they imported a load of Turkish "guest workers" in the 70s, but discovered that the "guests" then became permanent.       Some clown on the "Leave Campaign" has just been moaning that Brexit will mean visa requirements for Brits to travel to the EU; well of course it will, and likewise anyone else will require a visa to enter the UK, thats what border security is all about; knowing who's coming in and qualifying the terms of their stay. But not to worry, as those basket case economies of Spain, Italy and Greece, won't be compromising millions of Brits from funding their tourist industry.    

[P J]

      Some clown on the "Leave Campaign" 

 

and there are plenty of those

[observer]

Even more on the Remain Team !      We've just had a Tory Home Secretary telling us, there is no cure for immigration, IN or OUT;  certainly no cure if we stay in, but certainly a cure if we have a Gov prepared to safe guard our  borders when we're out.

[Davy51]

It's a good job we managed to repel boarders when the jackboot was kicking at the door.

 

What type of people are these politicians ? If we come out we will be masters of our own destiny & able to take invited guests only. The forlorn states in Europe will be bending over backwards to trade with an independent UK.

[P J]

we had the main man and chief  buffoon in the leave campaign lying and using dog whistle racist accusations.  

[P J]

It's a good job we managed to repel boarders when the jackboot was kicking at the door.

 

FFS 

[Davy51]

We have also 40 years worth of career politicians who have known nothing else but being part of the European bureaucratic machine who can't see an existence outside the EU.

[P J]

We have also 40 years worth of career politicians who have known nothing else but being part of the European bureaucratic machine who can't see an existence outside the EU.

 

do you ever read what you type?

[observer]

Do you?! We're discussing Brexit, and all you can offer is some remark about "dog whistle racism"; which has absolutely nothing to do with the question posed in the coming referendum. Dave, the Home Secretary is the woman in charge of securing a Tory Manifesto commitment to reducing immigration into the UK, and is now confessing that she can't do it. Perhaps she should be sent to Australia on a refresher course to see how it can be done - and within months. 1) The first thing to do is exit any Treaty that involves a commitment to the free movement of labour - hence Brexit. 2) The next thing is to exit all Treaties that bind us to laws that supplant laws made by our sovereign Parliament - hence exit the ECHR. 3) Then start making laws that support and conform with a policy of selective immigration based on the Country's skills requirements, and the immediate repatriation of all illegal entrants and visa over-stayers.

[P J]

Do you?! We're discussing Brexit, and all you can offer is some remark about "dog whistle racism"; which has absolutely nothing to do with the question posed in the coming referendum.

Erm,  didn't you start quoting what various proponents had been saying?  I am simply responding to that, don't you watch the news?  Or if its not what you want to hear do you switch of quick?  

[observer]

" had been saying" - relevant to the Brexit debate. You know, pros and cons etc. 

[Davy51]

So, which of our present influential politicians were around in the pre Common Market era ? All our present politicians have only ever known Britain as being a decreasingly influential member of the EU  & with a prospectively diminishing national identity the further the UK is sucked into the all consuming black hole.

[P J]

So, which of our present influential politicians were around in the pre Common Market era ? All our present politicians have only ever known Britain as being a decreasingly influential member of the EU  & with a prospectively diminishing national identity the further the UK is sucked into the all consuming black hole.

 

and are they all in favour of remaining in?

[Freeborn John]

we had the main man and chief  buffoon in the leave campaign lying and using dog whistle racist accusations.  

'Dog whistle', that's almost Freudian, considering it was the US multinationals yard dog he was on about.

[Davy51]

"In my opinion" the enlightened cross party politicians are the ones who would prefer a future for the UK outside the EU.

[P J]

"In my opinion" the enlightened cross party politicians are the ones who would prefer a future for the UK outside the EU.

Pmsl