Palastine tragedy -

[observer]

The same "pragmatists" that have ensured they have over 150 nuclear bombs, and have just completed a 90 aircraft training mission over Greece, in preparation for an attack on Iranian Nuclear targets? Get real!

[Goonerman]

I'm not talking about the nukers, or the hard-liners, I am talking about those working for peace and reconciliation in the background and in the fact that the endless stalemate will eventually bring out the equivalents of Nelson Mandela, FW De Clerke, John Hume and David Trimble in Israel-Palestine, as people eventually become so weary of it all that they'll be wanting to strike a deal.

 

Pah, and you say I'm simplistic.

 

Do you seriously think Israel will go ahead with this? More likely it's a message to Iran to back down.

 

Nice to tar all of the Israelis with the same brush. A true mark of bigotry.

 

Boring.

[observer]

Suggest you stick to history and theology Gman, cos your lost outside them. The Israelis have been paranoid about their very existance ever since the State was created, and probably with good cause. Any threat, even a perceived one; will be met with the full might at their disposal; you only have to look at their recent invasion of Lebanon. Plus, they perform a usefull proxy for the USA in the region. Now Hillary Clinton might say, as President, she would nuke any Iranian nuclear facility; but that's just electioneering - the Israelis would just do it. Sorry Gman, but that's the real world.

[Chrissy]

You mean someone reads Gman's posts? They're interesting but far too long. I've given up.

Please be more concise G!

[observer]

Boring if not deranged!

[Goonerman]

Nuclear war will never happen, though Israel will do what they can to dissuade opponents. But, pragmatism will win in the end. And if it doesn't- something more scary than nuclear war will happen.

 

I still remember with mirth your doom-laden posts 2 years ago claiming Israel would destroy the world with nuclear weapons when they were attacking the Hezbollah in Lebanon. Now that if I was mean enough could call deranged. Paranoid certainly. Plus- if Israel have 'good reason' the closest to rational statement about Israel you have made- then it cannot be 'paranoia' on their part.

 

A situation like Israel-Palestine is not written in stone. It will be a long time before there is any resolution, but all of these conflicts come to an end sometime. Everything comes to an end.

 

Plus, if I'm strong on history, then I won't be lost in current affairs.

 

ZZzzzzzz. Roll On London.

[observer]

"Never happen" eh?! Seems your association with an Almighty has given you the powers of a prophet? Meanwhile, mere mortals have to rely on observation and the laws of probabability!

[Goonerman]

I've no prophetic powers at all. I use observation and probability like everyone else. Your sneers amount to the fact that you made a fool of yourself completely during the Lebanon business and you know it. The reason why Israel will never nuke Iran is because Israel are defensively minded (in spite of their unquestionably wrong offensive moves against the Palestinians where they tarred everyone with the same brush with their cruel blunderbuss tactics, not least under Ariel Sharon, an idiot to be sure), because nuclear bombs scare the living daylights even of those who use them, because the horrors of Japan in 1945 are a warning to us, because nuclear arsenals are built up as disincentives to war (a paradox to be sure). And a lot of young Iranians are becoming increasingly restless over their Islamic government. (See the comic books Persepolis by Marianne Satrapi to get an indication of how Iranians really tick.)

 

That's not all. That other idiot on the Israeli/Palestinian scene, like Sharon removed from the stage by going the way of all flesh, namely Yasser Arafat, rejected in the talks with Ehud Barak chaired by Clinton totally reasonable, bend-over-backwards concessions by Israel which would have otherwise solved the problem. Arafat's advisors and negotiatiors were all for it as Israel offered to give the Golan Heights back to Syria, withdraw from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip giving Palestine independence, and handing East Jerusalem to Palestine.

 

The fact that the Israeli Government of that time were prepared to do this (in spite of Jerusalem being a far more crucial issue than even the Occupied Territories), depriving themselves of a defensive ring of steel round Jerusalem to protect West Jerusalem, and leave Galilee vulnerable to potential Syrian shelling (hence the reason for the capture of the Golan Heights in 1967), and the fact that Arafat's advisors were willing to do a deal enthusiastically, before the bitter old goat threw the wobbler and said "Go To Hell!", gives me optimism. The trouble is, how long will both sides learn the lesson? It took the idiots and blackguards here 30 years to learn the lesson, and how much even then? Nevertheless, in all these conflicts, at least in the modern era institutions are being designed to make armed conflict even harder, for it is when a Government and local councils lack true authority that extremists rise to the top, under strong and enlightened (not tyrannical) rulers, extremists are either not extremists or they are cowed as they deserve.

 

But the lesson will be learnt. It has to be. That applies to Iraq. Or their population will be lost. In all 'intractable' conflicts, there has always been that moment when both sides will get totally fed up and realise they are getting nowhere. True, that's not the same as real peace, plus there are hurts and resentments which bigots misuse the next generation, which is the cause of the other problem of the skipping in generations or two of violence- atavism- note the 30-40 year patterns in Ireland- which were not a coincidence.

 

But, nevertheless, whenever containment wins, if not eliminates, such violence, some kind of rapprochement always comes to be. There are checks and rules even in violent and seemingly chaotic conflicts. Certain boundaries even extremists know they cannot cross. Not even 9/11 changed that with Israel. So we had a terrorist incident in Jerusalem recently. The Israeli Defence Force has been caught in very bad

behaviour, yet there are exchanges of prisoners. Unsatisfactory, but it's not all the doom and gloom you peddle, a philosophy without hope.

 

For those who take comfort from actual words of prophecy, here's one for you: The context is that Jesus is warning His disciples about the disaster Israel would suffer in that generation- which they did in AD 70, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in the First Jewish-Roman War:

 

"For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now- and never to be equalled again. If those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive."

 

So the human race will survive.

 

As for me, I'm no prophet- I just have eyes and ears like everyone else.

[observer]

Don't know where you get your Lebanon myth from Gman, yet more pure invention about my posts. As for your copious verbage on the use or otherwise of nukes, it seems conventional State political wisdom believes that nuclear weapons WILL be used, albeit (in their view) ONLY by "unstable regimes" of which Iran is considered to be one; hence the idea of a nuclear non-proliferation treaty which one turns a blind eye to, if the State with the nukes is an ally of the US. So just as the expert anaysists of various States believe they WILL be used by "rogue" States; it is logical to deduce that States with the historic and collective paranoia of Israel WILL pre-empt such a possibility by uni-lateral action.

[Goonerman]

Ah, the Lebanon bit, shows I have got a better memory than you have, and now you are saying the same about Israel and Iran. Nuclear bombs are more about deterrents.

 

Besides, there has been a war in Iran for 30 years, and Iran are winning that one nicely. Interestingly, Israel to some degree only have themselves to blame.

 

It was they who armed the Shah's regime just as the Communists were about to overthrow it, so the Ayatollah was the beneficiary. There were other duplicitous actions as well.

 

But, Israel will never nuke Iran- for one simple reason. Their failure to get a substantial section of the Jewish population out of Tehran.

 

As for the claim that Israel cause the problems of the world- how does that work out when prior to 1948, from 587 BC onwards, the Holy Land has been under the rule of Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, the Seleucids, one failed century of independence, Rome, Byzantium, the Arabs, the Turks and the British. But they gave always been the cause of the problems of the world. Yeah, right.

 

And yet another 'nuke Israel' and 'nuke Iran' exchange ignored by the mods on this forum. Congratulations.

[observer]

Don't know where you pick up these myths - Jews in Tehran?! But they won't be targeting Tehran Goon; they will be targeting any nuclear facility that THEY believe is or will produce nuclear weapons - or is that to simple for your convoluted mind to grasp?!

[Jerry]

G-man, you don't go into an insane asylum and debate with a deranged cretin. You pity the poor fool, and ignore his slobbering rants. At least that's my philosophy.

[Goonerman]

"Don't know where you pick up these myths - Jews in Tehran?!"

 

What a hilarious statement! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL

 

And he calls himself an 'Observer'!

 

Well, Obblivious One, expert on all things, do this observing:

 

Get to yer local Waterstone's and look out for "The Secret War With Iran" by Ronen Bergman. Yes, it's written by an Israeli, but believe you me, Israel do NOT come out of this book with their reputation unscathed. There you will see Mossad's abject failure in getting the entire Jewish community in Tehran out of the country in 1979-80. Bear in mind that Israel was on good terms with Iran when the Shah was in charge, and that, prior to the Revolution, there were many synagogues in Tehran.

 

You do of course realise that most people in Iran have always resented the Islamic tyranny over them. Look at a photo of people walking through Tehran in 1978 and one in 1979, and see the difference! Iranians were very western before the Ayatollah turned up. (You do know the West put him in power, and the media thought his extremism was so wonderful, meh, idiots!)

 

Plus, a lot of young people in Iran have been blabbing about

wanting the US to invade. There are tons of Iranians all over the world waiting for the day when they can go home.

 

Not that I advocate an invasion. Plus, the secret war already raging for 30 years has been won by the Iranian Government as the US, UK and Israel blunder. And then of course, ahem, cough cough, is the warning of Iraq.

 

I recommend the cartoon DVD adaptation and the graphic novel original of 'Persepolis' by Marjane Satrapi. The most telling moments are the little girls mocking their Muslim teachers and doing hilarious things with their hijabs and little Marjane passing through big blokes on the streets of Tehran with huge coats opening their coats full of tapes muttering to the public and to her, "Michael Jackson", "Lionel Richie", "ABBA", "Iron Maiden". She picked Iron Maiden. Then there were the terrifying Muslim women who stopped women and little girls, shouting at them because a little fringe of hair appeared slipping out of their hijabs. And of course, in private, all the girls threw off their Islamic gear to reveal they were punks, New Romantics, and rockers! As well as boys and girls doing parties on the sneak, smoking, drinking, blaring 80s pop and rock, and running from the authorities.

[observer]

Well it's sorted then; on the basis of your mystical beliefs, all the Iranians have to do, is house "these Jews" in any/all of their nuclear processing sites, thus making them immune to Israeli air strikes - I don't think so!

[Goonerman]

More hot air from the Obblivious One. If Iranian intelligence worked out when Israel would strike, there is a devastatingly simple answer. Drag out all the terrified Jews in Tehran.

 

Mystical beliefs my foot, meh, meh.

 

You're an hysterical fearmonger, trying to make the locals in Warrington cower in terror when the kiddies sing "All Creatures Great and Small."

 

Watch that little Sally Army lady rattling the money box. Ooooooohhhh

 

It's a CONSPIRACY!!!

 

I see another brainless book on the evil American Christian Right's desire to destroy the world has come out. And the press in Britain have fallen right for it, notwithstanding the divisions within American Christianity on politics and the lack of a monolithic 'Christian' political perspective.

 

More sensationalist nonsense.

 

Interesting that I'm 'convoluted' and you favour a more 'simple' view of things. In other words' you are saying you're simple and I'm not?

[observer]

I guess your too busy reading books to be aware of what's happening in the world around you; so perhaps you'll be interested to learn that US policy and that of their client State of Israel, is NOT to allow the Iranians possession of nuclear weapons - and I would suggest this will be done by any means necessary. Meanwhile of course; they have negotiated the supply of nuclear technology to India, a Nation who has Nuclear Weapons BUT, unlike Iran, has never signed up to the Nuclear non-proliferation Treaty - sort that little piece of Machiavellian Global Politics out!

[asperity]

I have to agree with you Gman. it's very easy to be simplistic when in fact world affairs are so complex that only mega brains such as Gordon Brown (only joking there) can comprehend them

[observer]

Asp: the fundementals are simple, however they are cloaked in complexity to fool Joe Public!

[Goonerman]

Ahem, that only applies to morality, Obbs.

 

Funny how the morally convoluted (those who are against morality or a simple morality) are simplistic as to the practicalities when they aren't overcomplicating it- and when they do overcomplicate it, they do so because they are being too simplistic to be able to realise it's more knotty than that. Only the morally simple are clear-sighted to deal with both simple and complicated situations.

 

(Oh, and there is a world of difference between complicated and complex.)

 

The books I read ARE aware of the world around me, but the US and Israel would not be so stupid as to use any means- which is the whole point of them wanting Iran to back down- the US baulked after the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki- I wonder why the only Nuclear War ever occurred in 1945?

 

Besides, what about the Iranians who don't support their leaders, like most of them, and the Iranians abroad whom the US and Israel would just love to replace them with by hook or by crook? Besides, the oillllll, Obbbbsssss, the OILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!! ?????????????$$$$$$$$$$$$$????????????$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

I wonder how much money the US could earn from 1000 years of nuclear waste?

[observer]

You'll be using the green ink soon Gman!

[Goonerman]

What a plonker!

 

Your lack of creativity is noted. Or positive suggestions.

[observer]

... said Gman as he looked in the mirror!

[asperity]

This mutual admiration society is getting out of hand

[observer]

not sure "admiration" is the appropriate word Asp!

[asperity]

Errrrmmmm sarcasm?????