Northern Power House ?

[P J]

So come on, which manufacturing skills and production should be ring fenced and protected for a yet to determine need in the future?  We have mentioned steel, what else would we need to be completely self sufficient?

[observer]

Think it starts with energy;  even this Gov have realised we can't finish up depending on Russian gas or Arab oil, hence their aspiration for fracking.  A balanced economy requires a balance between industrial and service sectors; we've clearly become over reliant on the service sector.  You've got to have a couple of old shopping bags under the stairs !

[P J]

so will the French or the Japanese build our nuclear power stations?  

[observer]

Thought we'd asked the Chinese ? ! 

[P J]

well it won't be the British.  We are reliant on foreign trade and foreign food and foreign energy and foreign expertise and foreign labour and foreign military aid.  Get used to living in a world not a country, county, town or street.

[observer]

That's the nub of it - must be an age thing ! Those lefty luvvie teachers in the 80s & 90s have a lot to answer for.

[P J]

try to think of it this way, no Poles, no pension, it might help.

[observer]

lol: Sorry, I forgot all those Poles with top earning salaries, paying loads of tax and NI, pull the other one!

[P J]

you love a bit of anecdotal evidence don't you ?  Well 2 of my friends from Poland are a dentist and an engineer.  They pay more tax than you ever did.  When I needed treatment on my spine the consultant was Polish, he pays more tax than you ever did, another of my Polish pals is in charge of the installation and maintenance of industrial plant and he pays more tax than you ever did.  Like I say, no Poles no pensions.

[P J]

If you can, pull your head out of the sand and read this

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

[observer]

So we don't have any Poles claiming tax credits, using our schools, hospitals, council services etc? Must be just the Rumanians and Bulgarians etc then ?! Save that myth building for the gullible.

[P J]

Yes we do, but that is accounted for in the figures and Britain benefits from ALL EU immigration to the tune of billions.  No myth, documented fact.  Read the report.  Then again don't bother , you simply dismiss anything inconvenient to your viewpoint.

 

The study shows that not only are European migrants more highly educated than the UK-born workforce but they are less likely to be in receipt of state benefits – 43% less likely among migrants in the past decade – and more likely to be in employment. They are 7% less likely to live in social housing.

[observer]

More luvie  propaganda, probably sponsored by the EU.  The majority of migrants are in low skilled, low paid,  menial employment, so will be in receipt of tax credits or paying little tax, aside from using all available services, incl education for their kids.

[P J]

Are you stupid, tax credits have been all but obliterated by this Tory government.  

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34437550

 

thats a lot of poor and hardworking people of all types going to suffer.  Trident could pay for this and then some.

 

Many many EU immigrants pay more tax than you ever did, stop trying to find an easy target to blame for the woes of the country, Hitler did that and look where that led.

[observer]

"Many many" isn't the majority, but keep trying !

[Antisthenes]

PJ, read my posts and respond to the points contained therein, rather than just say the idea is stupid. If we mined your posts for ideas we would need a government subsidy pretty quickly to stay open. Squillion is an non-specific large number, so no need for (sic) afterwards ironically, given that you should use it when highlighting someone's spelling or grammatical error. Give us some of your ideas. Anyone can cut and paste a link from a left-wing newspaper or website which goes some way towards justifying their own ideology or funding, in the case of the UCL 'report'. These institutions don't write reports without good reason. That good reason is usually money. I could have a wild stab in the dark as to the origin of the funding. I am sure you could too. If you are analysing a subject, you may wish refer to more than one source or viewpoint for balance. I only ask that we retain some of our own skills that they be used and passed on. The Guardian link refers to £6.8bn education requirement to make up the skills gap. That hole didn't appear overnight. Successive governments have overseen its creation. I find that abhorrent. We need to encourage our students into vocational subjects, such as those where shortfalls exist.

[P J]

I absolutely agree that we should encourage our students into vocational subjects and narrow our skills gap but that, as you like to point out, won't happen overnight.  This country has a far higher ratio of pensioners to workers than at any time in its history.  These pensioners need money in the way of pensions.  There aren't enough indigenous workers to pay in enough tax to pay these pensions, ergo?  Back to the OP subject, retaining skills is impossible for a private company to do if Global market forces, in the case of this particular thread, steel rebar prices, fall sharply due to whatever the circumstances but on this occasion Chinese overproduction and supply of said rebar.  They cannot sustain losses for years and years in order to keep alive the skill sets the country may need in the event of conflict etc. .  It's pretty basic economics, you lose money you go bust eventually.  Now the state cannot afford either to keep these failing businesses and trades going for a prolonged period of time as a way of ring fencing and protecting our skills either like a heritage skills bank.  Even with a bank of skills we would still need foundries that were up and running as it takes years to de mothball and go back to full production.  The steel rebar production is only one of a whole gamut of skills and manufacturing processes we would require to become totally self sufficient.  We  would also need to become self sufficient in the production of the raw materials required for producing the stuff.  Iron ore, coal, coking plants, tin, copper etc.  All this extra production is going to require a lot more power, we are already reliant upon energy import to keep the lights on and the home fires burning,  this would make the energy gap even wider.  We would also need to be producing a third more food than we presently can.  To do this we would have to convert vast spaces to agriculture and even then its doubtful we could achieve and sustain the required amount of food production.  It would be Shangri-La if we could be competitive, highly trained, highly skilled and self sufficient in the production of everything we require but as I am sure you are aware Shangri-La is a work of fiction much like the suggestions in this thread claiming we can produce everything we need as a country to be self sufficient to cover us against some future non specified doomsday scenario.  In the 1930's I am sure we had a much larger and more highly trained manufacturing industry than we do now yet we still needed to convoy in vital supplies and raw materials and manufactured goods from all over the world.  My suggestion is this, import what we need, export what we can, and manufacture and grow what we viably can, make up the shortfall in workforce, skills gaps and expertise from around the world and keep our pensioners fed and warm.  If we identify and make attractive the areas we need skills in then perhaps at some stage we may need less imports and imported skill but then needs and the requirements of skill sets are constantly changing and sometimes a country needs to react quickly, as do private companies. We live in a Global market, who built and owns most of our car manufacturing plants, power stations, electronic factories, foundries, etc.?  I will give you a clue it's not usually Britain. Wasting all the countries money and resources trying to keep alive private industries which have failed and which , ironically, weren't even a British company, would be wrong and dare I say it stupid as we don't have bajillions of pounds lying around gathering dust. I know this is not a solution but I don't like to pretend I have the solution for anything and everything unlike other , more deluded, posters . 

 

Who knows, perhaps a plan to save the Redcar plant at sometime in the future can be arrived at andI hope that the plant is properly mothballed by the receivers.  I truly hope it can as I hate to see industries go bust and the cost to the local communities will be huge.  The problem isn't producing the steel, it is trying to sell it at a profit and as we see all the time, market forces change all the time.

[P J]

"Many many" isn't the majority, but keep trying !

You just don't get it do you?

[P J]

Squillion is an non-specific large number, so no need for (sic) afterwards ironically, given that you should use it when highlighting someone's spelling or grammatical error.

F.Y.I. sic isn't purely for the use of pointing out a spelling mistake but also flawed logic, surprising assertions and anything else which may be taken as an error of transcription. In deference to your wishes I resisted cutting and pasting the dictionary definition, wouldn't want to hurt your feelings

[asperity]

I absolutely agree that we should encourage our students into vocational subjects and narrow our skills gap but that, as you like to point out, won't happen overnight.  This country has a far higher ratio of pensioners to workers than at any time in its history.  These pensioners need money in the way of pensions.  There aren't enough indigenous workers to pay in enough tax to pay these pensions, ergo?  Back to the OP subject, retaining skills is impossible for a private company to do if Global market forces, in the case of this particular thread, steel rebar prices, fall sharply due to whatever the circumstances but on this occasion Chinese overproduction and supply of said rebar.  They cannot sustain losses for years and years in order to keep alive the skill sets the country may need in the event of conflict etc. .  It's pretty basic economics, you lose money you go bust eventually.  Now the state cannot afford either to keep these failing businesses and trades going for a prolonged period of time as a way of ring fencing and protecting our skills either like a heritage skills bank.  Even with a bank of skills we would still need foundries that were up and running as it takes years to de mothball and go back to full production.  The steel rebar production is only one of a whole gamut of skills and manufacturing processes we would require to become totally self sufficient.  We  would also need to become self sufficient in the production of the raw materials required for producing the stuff.  Iron ore, coal, coking plants, tin, copper etc.  All this extra production is going to require a lot more power, we are already reliant upon energy import to keep the lights on and the home fires burning,  this would make the energy gap even wider.  We would also need to be producing a third more food than we presently can.  To do this we would have to convert vast spaces to agriculture and even then its doubtful we could achieve and sustain the required amount of food production.  It would be Shangri-La if we could be competitive, highly trained, highly skilled and self sufficient in the production of everything we require but as I am sure you are aware Shangri-La is a work of fiction much like the suggestions in this thread claiming we can produce everything we need as a country to be self sufficient to cover us against some future non specified doomsday scenario.  In the 1930's I am sure we had a much larger and more highly trained manufacturing industry than we do now yet we still needed to convoy in vital supplies and raw materials and manufactured goods from all over the world.  My suggestion is this, import what we need, export what we can, and manufacture and grow what we viably can, make up the shortfall in workforce, skills gaps and expertise from around the world and keep our pensioners fed and warm.  If we identify and make attractive the areas we need skills in then perhaps at some stage we may need less imports and imported skill but then needs and the requirements of skill sets are constantly changing and sometimes a country needs to react quickly, as do private companies. We live in a Global market, who built and owns most of our car manufacturing plants, power stations, electronic factories, foundries, etc.?  I will give you a clue it's not usually Britain. Wasting all the countries money and resources trying to keep alive private industries which have failed and which , ironically, weren't even a British company, would be wrong and dare I say it stupid as we don't have bajillions of pounds lying around gathering dust. I know this is not a solution but I don't like to pretend I have the solution for anything and everything unlike other , more deluded, posters . 

 

Who knows, perhaps a plan to save the Redcar plant at sometime in the future can be arrived at andI hope that the plant is properly mothballed by the receivers.  I truly hope it can as I hate to see industries go bust and the cost to the local communities will be huge.  The problem isn't producing the steel, it is trying to sell it at a profit and as we see all the time, market forces change all the time.

I agree with all you have said here.

[Davy51]

"There aren't enough indigenous workers to pay enough tax to cover these pensions"  Exactly the problem with pandering to the lazy & workshy who should be out there in what employment there is instead of sitting at home fleecing the country with their bogus bad backs.No wonder it is more attractive for companies to use foreign labour than rely on our own people.The government need to tackle this problem before the money runs out.

[P J]

"There aren't enough indigenous workers to pay enough tax to cover these pensions"  Exactly the problem with pandering to the lazy & workshy who should be out there in what employment there is instead of sitting at home fleecing the country with their bogus bad backs.No wonder it is more attractive for companies to use foreign labour than rely on our own people.The government need to tackle this problem before the money runs out.

So nobody is ill, infirm or unable to do a job of work, they are all malingerers? You see, they already check people who are disabled and/or long term unemployed against the risk of malingering and it has resulted in some very disturbing cases, so much so that Duncan-Smith and his department have had to put out misleading and fictitious claims in a bid to cover up just how badly they are handling the benefit sanctioning debacle.  People are left with nothing at all to live on for weeks or longer for some pretty ridiculous reasons.  It has lead to suicides and criminal records for stealing food .  Here is a link to some sanctioning cases.

 

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-11-most-senseless-benefit-sanction-decisions-known-to-man--x1dmkd2_Me

[Davy51]

Well PJ the number of disabled people in this country is ridiculous all drawing top whack in benefits, not saying there are not deserving claimants,but the number of so called disabled has mushroomed in my lifetime & maybe a bit of exercise would do some of these people good.

We have people on part time or zero hours jobs who the government hope will have spare money to fund their own pensions & i am afraid that unless more people are in full time work,paying tax & NI ,& not tax credits ,then the whole welfare structure in this country will come crashing down.

[P J]

Right so according to you the cure for the many different and diverse disabilities in the world is more exercise.  Have you any idea just how offensive that statement is?  Unbelievable.

[Davy51]

Yes & i am not offended.