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Warrington underwriting housebuilding in other towns


grey_man
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Another attempt to steer the topic off course PJ ?

 

Well, we've had intervention with the forum host, sarcasm, attempts to ridicule but none of it's working is it?

Sticks and stones...... PJ, a pretty petty game to be playing and it's you who are looking ridiculous. 

Why are you so concerned in trying to silence conversation on the subject?

 

And if you think this is a 'dead end forum' why do you follow the conversations on it?

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Can't move in this place for spit covered dummies at times.

 

Questions have been asked and politician answers recieved (eg none answers or more spin than a gyroscope on a roundabout)

 

What I really want to know is not why but whether the interest paid to the council for the loan to whomever is greater than the intrest that the council will pay for taking the loan out in the first place. Or to put it another way. Will the council be making money out of it and if so how does this benefit us the council tax payers. (probably all any of us really want to know) and if not why are they doing it at a loss?

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Can't move in this place for spit covered dummies at times.

 

Questions have been asked and politician answers recieved (eg none answers or more spin than a gyroscope on a roundabout)

 

What I really want to know is not why but whether the interest paid to the council for the loan to whomever is greater than the intrest that the council will pay for taking the loan out in the first place. Or to put it another way. Will the council be making money out of it and if so how does this benefit us the council tax payers. (probably all any of us really want to know) and if not why are they doing it at a loss?

 

I'm sure they're making money, but the questions I have are:

 

- what benefit is it to have Warrington Borough Council loan to companies who then build (then sell?) properties in other towns?

- if, as the council tells us, this is all about economic regeneration, why are they not investing the money primarily in projects in Warrington rather than primarily somewhere else?

- who is underwriting the debt and how?

- could the council get higher ROI from investing in something else, especially if it were invested in Warrington?

- does the council see regional economic regeneration as part of its role and, if so, what other regional councils are investing in Warrington?

- who makes decisions about this and how?

- what assets will exist at the end of the 25 year credit period, where will they be and who will own them?

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In answer to your last point, I would guess that the assets would belong to however the Council has lent the money to.... when you take out a loan for a car or a mortgage for a house, the car or house doesn't belong to the bank once you've paid the loan/mortgage back in full

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I'm sure they're making money, but the questions I have are:

 

- what benefit is it to have Warrington Borough Council loan to companies who then build (then sell?) properties in other towns?

- if, as the council tells us, this is all about economic regeneration, why are they not investing the money primarily in projects in Warrington rather than primarily somewhere else?

- who is underwriting the debt and how?

- could the council get higher ROI from investing in something else, especially if it were invested in Warrington?

- does the council see regional economic regeneration as part of its role and, if so, what other regional councils are investing in Warrington?

- who makes decisions about this and how?

- what assets will exist at the end of the 25 year credit period, where will they be and who will own them?

1.  The town profits.

2.  As GGH and Helena merge there is no purely Warrington based Housing trust anymore but a partnership including St. Helens

3. you know this.

4.  Possibly but since so many Councils got their fingers burned investing in Icelandic banks etc.  perhaps the social/affordable housing market feels safer.

5.  It isn't just a tit for tat system, I'm sure that many outside agencies invest in other towns 

6. Not this forum. Elected or employed council/housing trust  bods.

7.  Do you understand how a mortgage works?  It's a bit like that. As for where will the properties be, I imagine right wherethey were to begin with, unless they are buying caravans.

 

 

Just guesses from someone who doesn't really know all the answers but is unafraid to say so.

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1.  The town profits.

2.  As GGH and Helena merge there is no purely Warrington based Housing trust anymore but a partnership including St. Helens

3. you know this.

4.  Possibly but since so many Councils got their fingers burned investing in Icelandic banks etc.  perhaps the social/affordable housing market feels safer.

5.  It isn't just a tit for tat system, I'm sure that many outside agencies invest in other towns 

6. Not this forum. Elected or employed council/housing trust  bods.

7.  Do you understand how a mortgage works?  It's a bit like that. As for where will the properties be, I imagine right wherethey were to begin with, unless they are buying caravans.

 

1. Yes, but not as much as St Helens etc. Go figure. And I don't think a 1.5% return (or whatever) on £380 million over 25 years is the best they could do.

2 Yes, but they could still ensure the majority of the housebuilding is in Warrington.

3. No I don't.

4. Not if one of the housing associations has a terrible credit rating and an official report highlighting the perilous nature of its finances and management. Don't see what Icelandic banks have to do with it, unless you're saying we only have a choice of two types of shit to eat rather than ice cream.

5. OK. Name another council that is investing tens of millions of pounds in Warrington.

6. Not the question I asked. We can all spot a straw man.

7. Except in this case the mortgage it's like is the one you take out on behalf of your neighbour for a house he or she will own at the end of the mortgage but which he/she promises - faithfully - to repay you along with a few extra quid for your trouble. ie a mortgage that no sane person would consider for a moment. 

 

I imagine this thread will peter out now, with the unanswered questions hanging in the air like the Cheshire Cat's smile. Let's hope it doesn't need to be resurrected in the future when a failed housing association which has built and sold a load of houses in another town leaves Warrington's residents with a bill running to millions of pounds.  

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1. What? - perfectly obvious

2.Why? - because it's Warrington Borough Council's job to look after Warrington and St Helens Council's job to look after St Helens.  

3. Fibber. - nope

4. return rates - now you're clutching at straws.

5. Helena - Try again. Which outside local authorities are funding developments in Warrington? IN fact, name one other council in the whole of the UK other than WBC that is facilitating investment of hundreds of millions in other towns. 

6. Ask - ?

7. Bollox - so not like a mortgage then at all, is it? Mortgages are when you take out a loan to invest in your own assets, not somebody else's.  

 

And here's a bonus question for you to throw insults about or bullshit your way around:

 

8. Warrington, Merseyside and St Helens aren't even in the same LEP. So why is Warrington concerning itself with economic regeneration through housebuilding more in St Helens than in Warrington itself? 

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sigh.

 

1.What do you suggest for a 100% safe investment returning 1.5% for 25 years?

2. Helena Partnerships will/do own almost 13000 homes in the Warrington area.  Its not only helena either, Muir Group are also being used to build 300 houses in town.

3.  You already answered this earlier as did others. but here you go   http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/warrington-mulls-250-million-bond/6527221.article

4. I refer you to answer 1.

5.As this form of investment is very new legislation its hardly possible for ir to have been done before now is it.  Apparently many councils are looking at this so I imagine there is much gnashing of gums on forums up and down the country to come :wink:

6. You could start by contacting Danny Mather in Finance .  http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/warrington-mulls-250-million-bond/6527221.article

7.  You are misunderstanding this, try to see the Banks roll in the mortgage process being replaced by the Councils,  The Council net the interest for the good folk of Warrington instead of the scumbags who caused the financial crisis and fixed the Libor. it should all become a little clearer.

8.  Perhaps they see a bigger picture than you?

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So still no answer to who else is doing it (nobody?), whether we could get higher returns by investing in our own town (we could), who foots the bill if things go wrong and how (us obviously but how is a mystery) and why WBC is financing economic regeneration in other towns and those outside its LEP area to boot rather than Warrington in the first place (really? and when did Dan Mather decide the economic regeneration of St Helens and Chester rather than Warrington was his job? Is his salary funded by councils in those towns?).

 

By the way, it's nice to see you've run through the whole gamut of fallacious arguments now. False dichotomies, ad hominem, reductio ad absurdem, straw men, circular reasoning, kettle logic, cherry picking and false authority.

 

Bingo! And you should go into politics / local government if you aren't already.

 

I liked the sigh by the way., God, you're so much more intelligent than the rest of us. Thank God you post ten times more than this particular 'blowhard' otherwise the board would dumb down completely. 

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Sorry about the head ache.  I will stop now as grey man ( more recently puce man )  clearly misled folk when he said he wanted answers,  he doesn't he just wants to hear his own opinion and to sound off.  You can see this all prettily wrapped up in brackets after his questions,his own answer.  Anything different must therefore be wrong.  If nothing else he has given me a few giggles and I did manage to make him blow even harder.   All I will suggest is to ask the relevant people relevant questions and if their answer doesnt suit him he can just shout a little louder :D

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Sorry about the head ache.  I will stop now as grey man ( more recently puce man )  clearly misled folk when he said he wanted answers,  he doesn't he just wants to hear his own opinion and to sound off.  You can see this all prettily wrapped up in brackets after his questions,his own answer.  Anything different must therefore be wrong.  If nothing else he has given me a few giggles and I did manage to make him blow even harder.   All I will suggest is to ask the relevant people relevant questions and if their answer doesnt suit him he can just shout a little louder :D

 

In brackets - more questions, not answers. I have asked the relevant people. And I've read what they said. None of it contains answers to those questions. 

 

And you won't answer the questions either.

 

Try just one for me. - How many other councils in the UK are investing hundreds of millions in housebuilding in neighbouring towns? You can admit it's none now and save us all the trouble.    

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In brackets - more questions, not answers. I have asked the relevant people. And I've read what they said. None of it contains answers to those questions. 

 

And you won't answer the questions either.

 

Try just one for me. - How many other councils in the UK are investing hundreds of millions in housebuilding in neighbouring towns? You can admit it's none now and save us all the trouble.    

sigh.  (  :wink: )

 

As I tried to explain, this ability to take advantage of the new legislation is very new and I would be astounded if any council had actually had the time to have implimented this.  I don't think W.B.C. are so exceptionally astute that they are the only Authority to be looking into this. The question of investing hundreds of millions housebuilding in neighbouring towns is a little ambiguous though.  WBC, like a bank, are freeing up cash to a Housing Association  A lot of this , I hope, goes into housebuilding but a lot will also be used to service the existing housing stock.  As Helena have interests in both towns this means that it will be invested in both towns.  This matters not a jot when it comes back to the interest that WBC will earn from its loan agreement.  As I also said Helena/GGHT are not the only proposed partners in this as several other building/housing companies are looking to take advantage.  I am including a link to a write up on how it all works,  hope this helps.   http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/lending-a-hand/6527513.article

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There are at least two other councils Harringey and Halifax who are borrowing to lend onward. I don't know about the former but Halifax take an equity stake in the building programme which appears to be within Halifax borough/LEP, or similar, so I guess at the end of the day they do have the option of getting bricks and mortar.

 

The word from Westminster MP is that "as Warrington borough council is a council without a Housing Revenue Account (HRA), the recent HRA borrowing freedom have no impact on the Borough. Warrington Borough is using other powers around around the Localism Act which are not specific to the Borough Boundaries. The Council have had positive comments from the Government, and the  HCA are also supportive of this approach"

 

MP's response goes on to say that " after granting these loans local Registered Social Landlords have secured grants from the HCA which will lead to extra housing being built in Warrington.The loan money is secured against property and only after due diligence."

 

Not sure how many active Warrington RSL's  have benefited from WBC/HCA loans and how much revenue is currently fed in to WBC coffers ? The concept of WBC acting with borrowed money, as a bank/mortgage lender still seems unwise to me. Seems Westminster is happy with active "Localism"

 

(Google it, it's worth a read.)

 

I'm out too!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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