20mph zones working well then!

[wahl]

Another crowd of self appointed self promotion scammers with worthless awards

[rodk]

The placing and spacing of repeater signs is regulated by DfT in their Traffic Signs and Regulations Directive. It is not discretionary and if you have a wide area 20mph limit then you are required to follow these regulations.

 

Hence, whilst it may seem inappropriate to require a sign in certain places the "blame" lies with DfT and not WBC.

 

Best regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

Rod,

 

be that as it may,

 

I think that looking at all of the evidence on various advanced drivers forums and the DoT website etc. WBC got it the wrong way round in placing "20 zone" signs in areas with no speed bumps (like where I live in Westbrook) and "20" signs (like your imaginative avatar) in places that do have speed calming measures in place such as Sandy Lane west and Cleveland Road..... I read that on the DFT website too.....

 

20mph limits are areas where the speed limit has been reduced to 20 mph but there are no physical measures to reduce vehicle speeds within the areas. Drivers are alerted to the speed limit with 20mph speed limit repeater signs.

 

20 mph zones use traffic calming measures to reduce the adverse impact of motor vehicles on built up areas. The principle is that the traffic calming slows vehicles down to speeds below the limit, and in this way the zone is becomes „self-enforcing‟. Speed humps, chicanes, road narrowing, planting and other measures can be introduced to both physically and visually reinforce the nature of the road.

 

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=340

 

This also gives credence to the fact that WBC have got the signage completely wrong for most of their 20 areas and if challenged, they would be unenforceable.... so do we need to spend even more money getting them changed or putting more traffic calming measures in place?

 

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#20

 

"Since the exacting requirements of direction 16 of the Traffic Signs General Directions 2002 are legally binding, if they are not met it follows that the 20mph speed limit within the zone would be unenforceable, as use of the sign indicating the start of the zone (diagram 674) would not be legal."

 

   

Diagram 674

 

 

[Evil Sid]

It always amazes me the length that some people will go to to avoid paying a small fine rather than put their hand up and admit they were wrong.

 

for example a thirty five pound parking ticket contested in court will certainly cost more than the fine to defend if you take into account the time taken off work and maybe even the cost of a smart lawyer to defend it. ditto a speeding fine, albeit in a twenty limit.

 

it boggles the mind that the same people who campaigned to have a certain speed limit or traffic calming measures on their local street will quite happily ignore those same measures elsewhere and then kick up a fuss when they are caught out and given the mandatory slap on the wrist fine.They will also complain about the fact that other people visiting or passing through their bit do not heed the signs etc.

 

still if everybody stuck to the law then judges and lawyers would be walkling the streets loking for hand outs. (oh wait with the advent of accident claims for a bruised toenail they do, admittedly they don't actually walk the streets but it could only be a matter of time beforee they start going door to door)

[grey_man]

They are extremely unlikely to get fined for speeding in one of these zones because the police forces both locally and nationally have already said they can't police them. They don't work without additional measures, don't significantly reduce speeds on those roads and don't contribute anything to road safety, Rod and the council are essentially spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on a pointless exercise. They should all be ashamed because of the real good they could be doing with that money instead. 

[rodk]

Bazj

 

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have been speaking at a national conference on speed management today.

 

You are referencing a 2006 forum and since then there have been 3 new sets of guidance on speed limits and several changes in the TSRGD signage regulation.

 

Now repeater signs and carriageway roundels are classed as "traffic calming devices" for the purpose of 20mph zones and the only requirement for physical calming in such zones is that there needs to be a minimum of 1 physical device in the zone.

 

Basically the rules are that you have to have something at regular intervals to show that a 20mph zone or limit is so. In a zone this can be repeater signs and carriageway roundels or physical calming. In a limit it requires repeater signs or carriageway roundels but could also have physical calming in addition but not instead of.

 

With regard to the ABD reference then they are simply not credible as they have not taken into account the 2011 letter from the Transport minister allowing the use of repeater signs and  carriageway roundels as "traffic calming devices". So their advice is hopelessly out of date.

 

Regarding the zones in Westbrook. If you think they are incorrect then I suggest you contact WBC about them.

 

 

Greyman

 

As usual you are just wrong. Police can and do enforce 20mph limits. Shortly they will be able to put offenders on a speed awareness course for exceeding 24mph in a 20mph limit. In addition there are cases in civil law where a driver has been found liable for an incident because he was exceeding 24mph in a 20 mph limit.

 

Rod

[grey_man]

I'm sure they do. But the idea that the police are able to police them effectively is farcical, as the local and national police habitually point out. 

 

And I'm certainly not wrong about them being ineffective with regard to road safety. Your own pilot scheme proved it, at great expense to the people of Warrington. 

 

By the way, the idea that you're 'just a bloke trying to make better places to be' is misleading. Your campaign diverts money and resources away from effective programmes that could improve Warrington. Congratulations on getting councillors to buy into the whole waste of time, but at least be aware that some of us read the results of the pilot, know how much the whole thing will cost and realise where the council is withdrawing front line services to fund it. 

[Dizzy]

Rod you might know the answer to this as I've looked but can't find anything as all the docs online seem to relate to 'year one'.... I hope the following makes sense.

When they did the fist batch of roads they had a consultation and also a TRO?  (Traffic Order) was issued so people could comment and put forward any objections/support etc.

Then in 2012 they decided to do a blanket roll out across the borough which was approved but I'm sure I remember reading that there would still be consultations in the same way and Traffic Orders published.  I think it was one one of the news pages or maybe in a report which listed all the phases over 6 years and ALL the roads in each phase and the approx dates were listed that would/could be changed.

They certainly have done it all a lot sooner than anticipated though as our roads were supposed to be being done in year 6 (2018).  

 

[Dizzy]

 Police can and do enforce 20mph limits. Shortly they will be able to put offenders on a speed awareness course for exceeding 24mph in a 20mph limit. In addition there are cases in civil law where a driver has been found liable for an incident because he was exceeding 24mph in a 20 mph limit.

 

Rod

Re the new 20's around here... well try as they might the police have never managed to have the time or resources to enforce 30 on the 30's so I doubt they will have the time and resources to enforce 20 in the 20's either.

[Dizzy]

Quite ironic actually as two cars have just raced past as pressed 'post'...... ooh and a motorbike too now GRRR !!!!    Maybe the council could issue us with 'stingers'

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

Every one of the phases has been preceded by a Traffic Regulation Order including full disclosure in the local paper. Last week's Guardian has the complete list of roads in the final phases so that the public can comment.

 

When planning the roll-out which was approved as you have said, the council managed to find further funds including a Local Sustainable Transport Fund which obtained new money from central government. They also developed a more efficient way if installing signage which has made considerable savings allowing earlier completion. The complete borough is now planned to be completed this calendar year.

 

So the council has :-

 

1. Gained grants from central government to support and fund the roll out

2. Worked with suppliers on innovative ways to save money in the implementation

 

 

I believe that both of these should be commended.

 

Rod

[Dizzy]

Dizzy

 

Every one of the phases has been preceded by a Traffic Regulation Order including full disclosure in the local paper. Last week's Guardian has the complete list of roads in the final phases so that the public can comment.

 

When planning the roll-out which was approved as you have said, the council managed to find further funds including a Local Sustainable Transport Fund which obtained new money from central government. They also developed a more efficient way if installing signage which has made considerable savings allowing earlier completion. The complete borough is now planned to be completed this calendar year.

 

So the council has :-

 

1. Gained grants from central government to support and fund the roll out

2. Worked with suppliers on innovative ways to save money in the implementation

 

 

I believe that both of these should be commended.

 

Rod

Well there's been nothing stuck up around here that we've ever noticed when walking the dog every day Rod and other residents clearly haven't seen anything either or they wouldn't keep asking me about all the new signs.  (I seem to be the main port of call for info these days.... maybe I should get a job at the council).

 

What if people don't buy the Warrington Guardian? How do they know what's planned ? Surely it would make sense to have the orders online somewhere too ? 

I tend not to buy the Guardian as it's full of adverts and most of the news has already been online during the week prior to the printed copy on a Thursday so it's a waste of money and I don't like wasting money.

 

Anyway like I said I looked on the council's website last night and have just done it again but I can still only Traffic Regulation Order for phase one.  Very strange.......

 

I'm sure by tomorrow all the others will suddenly appear on-line though

[Dizzy]

Sorry I forgot to add that I'm quite impressed with the company who has found a quicker way of installing them (and easily removing them if necessary) with the ground screw technique.  So simple and yet so effective and I wish I'd have thought of that idea.... I could be rich now 

http://www.jpcs.co.uk/2014/01/jpcs-helps-deliver-road-safety-to-warrington/

and the case study....

http://www.jpcs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Groundscrew-Warrington-20mph-case-study_v1.pdf

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

I don't think they go on-line. The DfT regulation for a TRO is that it has to go on local paper. There is a change planned by DfT for local authority to be given discretion to use on-line publishing instead.

 

Rod

[Dizzy]

Why should it be discretionay and why 'instead' ?  Surely in this day and age both should be done as standard after all councils are encouraging people do to more on-line.

Anyway seems you are right (I had to check ha ha)
 

Publication of proposals [Traffic Regulation Order]

7.  (1)  An order making authority shall, before making an order,—

(a)publish at least once a notice (in these Regulations called a “notice of proposals”) containing the particulars specified in Parts I and II of Schedule 1 in a newspaper circulating in the area in which any road or other place to which the order relates is situated;

(b)in the case of an order under section 6 of the 1984 Act, publish a similar notice in the London Gazette;

©take such other steps as it may consider appropriate for ensuring that adequate publicity about the order is given to persons likely to be affected by its provisions and, without prejudice to the generality of this sub-paragraph, such other steps may include—

(i)in the case of an order to which sub-paragraph ( does not apply, publication of a notice in the London Gazette;

(ii)the display of notices in roads or other places affected by the order; or

(iii)the delivery of notices or letters to premises, or premises occupied by persons, appearing to the authority to be likely to be affected by any provision in the order.

(2) Not later than the date on which paragraph (1) has been complied with, the order making authority shall send a copy of the notice of proposals to each body or person whom it is required to consult under regulation 6(1) or under any of the provisions referred to in regulation 6(2).

(3) The order making authority shall comply with the requirements of Schedule 2 as to the making of deposited documents available for public inspection.

(4) Deposited documents shall be made so available at the times and at the places specified in the notice of proposals throughout the period beginning with the date on which the notice of proposals is first published and ending with the last day of the period of 6 weeks which begins with the date on which the order is made or, as the case may be, the authority decides not to make the order

Although in the case of point 4... if people are NOT already aware of the proposed TRO then having the deposited documents available for view in person somewhere seems a little pointless for them.....

[Bazj]

Regarding the zones in Westbrook. If you think they are incorrect then I suggest you contact WBC about them.

 

.... and have them waste even more money putting them right???? Yes; I must phone them straight away

[Coffee]

The problem with the 20mph speed limit is it is pollitical correctness.

 

How is reducing the speed limit to 20mph going to get X number of cars off the road, how is driving at 20mph going to give "OWNERSHIP" of streets back to the people and cyclists, cars, delivery vehicles and service vehicles still will be using them.

[wahl]

Rod is in dreamland and his followers have browbeaten scared useless politicians with so called statistics that are based on unreliable doubtful base data.

the politicians are scared they will be sued and capitulate to the stupid costly nonsense emanating without really examining the "facts" and actualities of their actions.from certain

Bring back common sense and gat rid of the clutter on the kerbs.y

[Bazj]

Rod is in dreamland and his followers have browbeaten scared useless politicians with so called statistics that are based on unreliable doubtful base data.

the politicians are scared they will be sued and capitulate to the stupid costly nonsense emanating without really examining the "facts" and actualities of their actions.from certain

Bring back common sense and gat rid of the clutter on the kerbs.y

 

well said

[rodk]

Yep, just off to "dreamland" now. Sleep tight!

[Dizzy]

Rod, just as a matter of interest....

Now the 20's are all being implemented everywhere (I noticed they are also in other areas around here too today).. do you personally as a driver, a walker and a cyclist feel any safer when you are out and about on your travels now ?

I just wondered that's all....... night night

[Coffee]

Yep, just off to "dreamland" now. Sleep tight!

 

I too have a question.

 

Your  utopia is nearly here, how long before we know whether it has worked or not, what if it hasn't, do we go back to 30 or do we go for 10mph?

 

Set some benchmarks and if we haven't succeeded give a pladge that you and the councillors who have backed this scheme will repay the people of Warrington the costs of implementing them.

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

Yes

 

Coffee

 

Not mine, but Warrington's. Decision made with all party support after an extensive pilot.

 

 

Also being done by most of UK's iconic cities. And there is increasing support from central government and Public Health.

 

 

[Dizzy]

Dizzy Yes

That's good Rod....... glad you feel safer

[Dizzy]

Coffee Not mine, but Warrington's. Decision made with all party support after an extensive pilot. Also being done by most of UK's iconic cities. And there is increasing support from central government and Public Health.

Rod.... aren't you the chap who fronts the 20 campaign and who has from the beginning instigated and pressed for it all both locally and nationally or have I got that wrong ?  I thought you got an award for it too.

 

I sometimes wonder what choice the Council really had given all the things that were thrown at them by the 20's plenty etc.  If they had voted against it and someone had got injured or killed on a road because they wouldn't drop the limits to 20 wasn't it once pointed out to them that they could get sued ?  

 

Saying that if someone gets injured or killed on a road that is now a 20 and as such is now deemed to be 'safer' couldn't the same still apply as they may be seen to have given people a false sense of safety and security.

 

Sorry but it's easy to twist things a little to give it a completely different slant or meaning....

 

So like Coffee asked.. how long before we all know if it's actually worked or not etc and who is monitoring how the changes are affecting each new area ?