inky pete Posted April 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 I think you misunderstand me Wahl,, I went on the course which was exactly the same cost as the speeding penalty would have been and, although boring, I realise that I deserved to be there as I should have paid more attention while driving, particularly on an unfamiliar road. Speeding is speeding no matter what time of day or night you do it, as people aren't on a curfew then they can and are hit by speeding drivers at all times. There is also the chance that sticking to the limit may stop the driver from crashing and hurting themselves which is probably more likely in poor visibility or if they are tired. Personally, I'd rather focus my attention on the road and what any other road users are doing than drive around staring fixedly a car's speedo (which isn't accurate at low speeds anyway). If anywhere near the resources were spent on improving and enforcing driving standards as are spent on persecuting non-dangerous drivers over a few mph then accident rates actually would fall and the roads would flow much more freely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 Personally, I'd rather focus my attention on the road and what any other road users are doing than drive around staring fixedly a car's speedo (which isn't accurate at low speeds anyway). If anywhere near the resources were spent on improving and enforcing driving standards as are spent on persecuting non-dangerous drivers over a few mph then accident rates actually would fall and the roads would flow much more freely. Brilliant post inky, I completely agree with you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 Personally, I'd rather focus my attention on the road and what any other road users are doing than drive around staring fixedly a car's speedo (which isn't accurate at low speeds anyway). If anywhere near the resources were spent on improving and enforcing driving standards as are spent on persecuting non-dangerous drivers over a few mph then accident rates actually would fall and the roads would flow much more freely. Spot on. The amount of reckless, thoughtless, distracted, incompetent and selfish driving needs to be addressed before we spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on new speed limits that those same drivers will ignore or not care about. The council knows for a fact that 20 mph speed limits do not improve road safety based on their own studies. It was madness to implement them rather than doing something meaningful and effective and just shows their commitment to dogma and pre-made decisions in the face of all evidence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 Personally, I'd rather focus my attention on the road and what any other road users are doing than drive around staring fixedly a car's speedo (which isn't accurate at low speeds anyway). If anywhere near the resources were spent on improving and enforcing driving standards as are spent on persecuting non-dangerous drivers over a few mph then accident rates actually would fall and the roads would flow much more freely. To be honest I wasn't persecuted I was prosecuted and rightfully so. If you are incapable of knowing what speed you are traveling at without taking your eyes of the speedo then you aren't a very good driver. I always try to drive within the limits and like everyone sometimes go a bit over through inattention and if I am caught doing that it's my own daft fault if I get a fine and points. I'm pretty sure that would make me even more careful when at the wheel. If it was left to us individually to decide what speed we wanted to go at and sod the rest it would be complete mayhem. We need speed limits and we need enforcement. We don't need poor drivers with a persecution complex blaming everything else but their own actions for their inability to observe a pretty simple law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 To be honest I wasn't persecuted I was prosecuted and rightfully so. If you are incapable of knowing what speed you are traveling at without taking your eyes of the speedo then you aren't a very good driver. I always try to drive within the limits and like everyone sometimes go a bit over through inattention and if I am caught doing that it's my own daft fault if I get a fine and points. I'm pretty sure that would make me even more careful when at the wheel. If it was left to us individually to decide what speed we wanted to go at and sod the rest it would be complete mayhem. We need speed limits and we need enforcement. We don't need poor drivers with a persecution complex blaming everything else but their own actions for their inability to observe a pretty simple law I disagree but maybe that is because I am a bed driver. if your tootling round Warrington and find yourself speeding then maybe your right, even though exceeding the speed limit by a few miles can be due to a slight hill. However if it is rush hour and I am in a strange town looking for an address, watching other traffic, while trying to work out which lane I should be in according to the signs and the sat nav is telling you about turning in 200 meters, it is all to easy to find myself over the speed limit especially if others around me are also driving faster then the speed limit. The new 20mph speed limit though is so hard to keep to, it feels unnaturally slow in my view, it is like trying to do 40mph through road works on the motorway, especially if your the only car on the road. Also should the same speed limits apply at 4.00 am as at 4pm? I once knew a traffic cop who had points on his license for speeding. Nigal Mansell, Jason Button and David Coulthard all have convictions for speeding according to google, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 I disagree but maybe that is because I am a bed driver. if your tootling round Warrington and find yourself speeding then maybe your right, even though exceeding the speed limit by a few miles can be due to a slight hill. However if it is rush hour and I am in a strange town looking for an address, watching other traffic, while trying to work out which lane I should be in according to the signs and the sat nav is telling you about turning in 200 meters, it is all to easy to find myself over the speed limit especially if others around me are also driving faster then the speed limit. The new 20mph speed limit though is so hard to keep to, it feels unnaturally slow in my view, it is like trying to do 40mph through road works on the motorway, especially if your the only car on the road. Also should the same speed limits apply at 4.00 am as at 4pm? I once knew a traffic cop who had points on his license for speeding. Nigal Mansell, Jason Button and David Coulthard all have convictions for speeding according to google, Ah that's no problem then , to make up for your inadequacies as a driver we should scrap all speed limits and let people go whatever speed they like, I mean it seems perfectly fine for sports people to break the law, oh just realised, they were rightly punished for speeding weren't they. Coffee, what speed do you drive through ASDA or the Hospital and other such places where the speed limit is sometime 10 mph? If there is a hill you as the driver are supposed to take account of this and reduce your speed accordingly. its not hard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 To be fair that's exactly what most people do. You should read the council's pilot scheme results for the 20mph limits. It found that average speeds in the areas piloted were around 24 mph BEFORE the new limits were introduced, which not only means that the vast majority of people drive to take account of road conditions but also explains why the pilot scheme made absolutely no difference to road safety. Meanwhile the ignorant, selfish and reckless drivers will just do what they do anyway. Coffee doesn't strike me as being in that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 Agreed 100% The vast majority of people are indeed sensible but that’ll never satisfy those for who the letter of the law is more important. Personally I’d go further and say that such people with their obsession and self-righteous attitude can create a far greater risk on our roads than a person that’s just marginally over the limit. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 After Mr Dizzy got his two speeding tickets both for 35mph in Wales he actually became what he and I classed as a 'dangerous' driver.... not because he kept going slightly over but because he spent most of his time staring at his speedo to make sure he didn't ever go over. It got worse than that as the next time we went to Anglesey a few months later he was so paranoid that not only was he watching the speedo rather than the road but he also finished up a dithering wreck driving along all the small roads 'just in case' so much so that he had to stop and I had to drive his car for the rest of the weekend.Not condoning anyone going slightly over the limit by the way but it does easily happen for a few minutes here and there (well it does to me cos my car doesn't beep and tell me when I've accidentally popped a little over 30 etc ) ... just saying how it affected him at the time after driving for almost 30 years at the time and having never had a speeding ticket, accident or even a parking ticket.In all fairness though we used to go to Anglesey quite a few times a year for holidays etc and looking back that was probably why we never saw people speeding there like we do round here... so maybe the tough approach did work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boris1066 Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 After Mr Dizzy got his two speeding tickets both for 35mph in Wales he actually became what he and I classed as a 'dangerous' driver.... not because he kept going slightly over but because he spent most of his time staring at his speedo to make sure he didn't ever go over. It got worse than that as the next time we went to Anglesey a few months later he was so paranoid that not only was he watching the speedo rather than the road but he also finished up a dithering wreck driving along all the small roads 'just in case' so much so that he had to stop and I had to drive his car for the rest of the weekend. Mr Dizzy's past reminds me that I got nicked in Abergele, same speed 35 mph.. I was livid too and made a bit of fuss to the extent that Mr's Boris bought me a Talex GPS device that told me where the speed camera's are and shouts at me to slow down. (The Talex that is not Mr's Boris!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 :lol: Watch out for twitching in bushes with the hand helds though Boris as that's what I think Mr Dizzy got caught with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 . Coffee, what speed do you drive through ASDA or the Hospital and other such places where the speed limit is sometime 10 mph? If there is a hill you as the driver are supposed to take account of this and reduce your speed accordingly. its not hard By the A&E department it is rare for me to ne doing 3 or 4 mph if not stopped, along the straight roa by the old part, faster. Not all declines are noticeable, not to me at any rate. Was not aware of any speed limits in Asda! Coffee doesn't strike me as being in that category. Thanks, I get retested by my employer every five years! In all fairness though we used to go to Anglesey quite a few times a year for holidays etc and looking back that was probably why we never saw people speeding there like we do round here... so maybe the tough approach did work :lol: Watch out for twitching in bushes with the hand helds though Boris as that's what I think Mr Dizzy got caught with. When I lived in Wales everyone kept to the speed limit but I do not believe the casualty/accident rates were any lower then national average. You can get an Android ap that warns you of live speed traps. I have a windows phone and while there is one for windows too, it is not very good. Interesting statistics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 They're only interesting in context, for example in terms of the numbers of roads. You could use these figures to suggest we need more motorways, especially in built up areas. It also appears to suggest a massive rise in the numbers of people injured or killed in 20mph zones but that must surely be down to the numbers of these roads increasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 The statistics are meaningless unless they take into consideration the number of miles in each road category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 The statistics are meaningless unless they take into consideration the number of miles in each road category. Yes I agree to a point, but this is the type of meaningless stetistic our politicians are using to push the 20mph speed limit. If the increase casualty figures are due to the increased number of 20mph speed limit areas should the casualty figures in the 30mph speed areas be considrably down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 I don't think they are using meaningless statistics. Their own stats tell them the 20 mph limits don't do anything for road safety so they're simply ignoring them. Which is good for us in a way because it proves that if they have plenty of money to spend on things that they know for a fact don't achieve anything, when it comes to funding meaningful projects - travel for the disabled for example - there won't be a problem...... Oh, wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 Statistically the 20mph limits do reduce speed albeit by only one or two mph which is then translated into injury severity statistics which are then used as evidence it's having an effect. Of course when it comes to cost, there's always those that say "what price a child's life?" and that's an argument nobody can win. In my experience though, it's only a very small minority of drivers who drive at inappropriate speeds for the road conditions and I believe that alternative and more cost effective measures could have been used to stop them. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahl Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Politically, 20is the biggest political con of the last few years. Only being outdone by the hs2 scam 20zones do not really work Traffic speed is qualified by the state of the road and with unmarked bumps and holes coupled with parked cars and a traffic light system suited to the 1950's contributing to the slow traffic throughput in Warrington. Drivers use all roads to avoid the worst ones such as Capesthorne Road and Hood Lane regardless of any artificial attempt to influence their speed If some proper traffic management scheme is not developed soon W Arrington will be totally gridlocked within four years and 20 zones are not the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Well guess what's suddenly appeared round here..... 20mph signs on all the small side roads. People do tend to drive at 20 or less on them though anyway. I've either been going round with my eyes shut recently or they have only just gone up but I haven't seen or heard any workers around here. Specsavers maybe ?I didn't think we were getting ours until next year and I also seem to remember reading that there would be consultations in each area too when the time came. Seems not. Stupid thing is that that one round near me that really needs something doing about the bloody speed people drive down it every day has not been changed and is still a 30 (or 40/50/60+ depending who you are !!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 As you probably know I work away from home for a couple of months at a time, When I came home this time I found that there were a couple of 20 MPH signs at the top of the road and a small one half way down. I live in a short cul-de-sac where there are cars parked either side for the length making it nigh on impossible to exceed 20 MPH in any case. The lunatics have taken over. Why doesn't the council use OUR money on worthwhile projects? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 Shame on you all for having a go at our potentially award winning safety scheme. http://www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/articles/18238/1/20mph-roll-out-shortlisted-for-two-awards/Page1.html I have to say that the twenty signs do work. They stand there proudly in the street to give people indication that the speed limit is twenty. As signs go they do their job. that people tend not to see them could be construed as driving without due care and attention but that is another matter. As for worthwhile projects maybe we should have a think and see what we can come up with, I will suggest that the council send inspectors round to check the state of the pathways in the warrington area with a view to resurfacing them. Wonder what the next idea will be (better not mention the plans in certain areas of the country to collect rubbish bins every three weeks instead of two in case the council go for a monthly version of the same). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 Rules and common sense don't always go hand in hand. Putting signs on a short cu-de-sacs where it's impossible to get near to 20 mph is proof (if anybody needed it!) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 As signs go they do their job. that people tend not to see them could be construed as driving without due care and attention but that is another matter. I'd just like to point out that I haven't actually been out in my car this week so when I said I hadn't seen them (specsavers) I didn't mean while I was driving on those roads The two sign post nearest to me don't have their 20 circles on them either although all the others seem to have theirs. Maybe they ran out or someone pinched them...... Quite a few of the neighbours round here who have seen them thought they just applied to the direct road they actually on which link the two main roads...... they didn't realise that all the other smaller roads are covered by the same 20 limit and it encompasses all the roads within the big area. They clearly haven't kept up with the news for the past year or so... durh !! Bill There's quite a few roads around here that as you say are impossible to get to 20mph on. In fact one is a really short road with a dead end tall brick wall at the bottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 It's just the same near my daughters house in Gt Sankey. Somebody clearly didn't want to be accused of missing a sign so they put one at every exit from the main road including small garage parking areas. Do you remember the picture a while back of the speed bump just a couple of feet from the brick wall? well these are just a silly. I dont know what the two awards were for, maybe one for stupidity and the other for wating the tax payers money! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 Bill......The news page report says re the 20's that WBC and it's appointed contractor have been shortlisted for... 'the “Best Practice” and “Safety Project of the Year” categories of the Chartered Institution of Highways and Transportation (CIHT) North West awards'.I just googled them/it and it's all quite interesting and according to their website they have 1000 members.I couldn't find Warrington Council on the shortilist though but I'm probably looking at the wrong bit. They definitely aren't under the section for 'Reducing Sign Clutter Award' http://www.ciht.org.uk/en/events/ciht-awards/ciht-awards-2014/shortlisted-entries-2014.cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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