Geoffrey Settle Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 It's a theory Inky, Davy raises another theory that I will expand on. What if all parents and children going to school or work by car actually walked, cycled, shared a lift or got the bus instead of using this and other rat runs ? The national crime Agency is supoose to have been promoting such a scheme that it's staff were suppose to be informed about and signing up to - pregnant pause whilt the tumble weed blows past the Home Office Building. I believe that there would be an even great reduction in traffic flow by commuters throughout Warrington - there are simply tooooooooooooooo many cars and people aren't looking for suitable alternatives are we taking the easy way out by sitting on our backsides when we could be getting fitter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 You want an easy and effective response to increasing numbers of cars? DON'T CLOSE PERFECTLY GOOD ROADS - ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE BUS ROUTES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 It's a theory Inky, Davy raises another theory that I will expand on. What if all parents and children going to school or work by car actually walked, cycled, shared a lift or got the bus instead of using this and other rat runs ? The national crime Agency is supoose to have been promoting such a scheme that it's staff were suppose to be informed about and signing up to - pregnant pause whilt the tumble weed blows past the Home Office Building. I believe that there would be an even great reduction in traffic flow by commuters throughout Warrington - there are simply tooooooooooooooo many cars and people aren't looking for suitable alternatives are we taking the easy way out by sitting on our backsides when we could be getting fitter? Geoff. Don't worry about what other agencies are up to but seeing as you've raised those issues. 1. When are the council going to close large parts of their own loss-making car parks and stop subsidising staff parking by shifting the burden for it onto shoppers and local businesses as they attempt to make a profit on parking? 2. When is the council going to promote development of the town centre rather than out of town retail parks which would encourage people to use public transport? And when I say 'promote' the town centre, I don't mean spending a fortune on big plant pots/urinals while granting planning permission for another kebab house to replace a shop as you've just done. 3. When is the council going to make bus fares attractive? 4. When is the council going to develop an infrastructure plan to deal with the bottlenecks? 5. We know slowing traffic down will not reduce accident numbers or improve the environment or reduce congestion. So why are you spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on it? I just hope I don't have to wait for a response to these for as long as my previous question asking you to give examples of when a council consultation/survey/pilot led to a change in the direction of a policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 And where is that taking place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Where is what taking place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 You want an easy and effective response to increasing numbers of cars? DON'T CLOSE PERFECTLY GOOD ROADS - ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE BUS ROUTES! And which roads that are bus routes and being closed - news to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Geoff. Don't worry about what other agencies are up to but seeing as you've raised those issues. 1. When are the council going to close large parts of their own loss-making car parks and stop subsidising staff parking by shifting the burden for it onto shoppers and local businesses as they attempt to make a profit on parking? 2. When is the council going to promote development of the town centre rather than out of town retail parks which would encourage people to use public transport? And when I say 'promote' the town centre, I don't mean spending a fortune on big plant pots/urinals while granting planning permission for another kebab house to replace a shop as you've just done. 3. When is the council going to make bus fares attractive? 4. When is the council going to develop an infrastructure plan to deal with the bottlenecks? 5. We know slowing traffic down will not reduce accident numbers or improve the environment or reduce congestion. So why are you spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on it? I just hope I don't have to wait for a response to these for as long as my previous question asking you to give examples of when a council consultation/survey/pilot led to a change in the direction of a policy. 1. When are the council going to close large parts of their own loss-making car parks and stop subsidising staff parking by shifting the burden for it onto shoppers and local businesses as they attempt to make a profit on parking? These issues are under constant review and assessed each year – as to when I don’t know who knows what the future holds - - the council always appreciate suggestions the problem is that few people engage in any survey these days – public or private. 2. When is the council going to promote development of the town centre rather than out of town retail parks which would encourage people to use public transport? And when I say 'promote' the town centre, I don't mean spending a fortune on big plant pots/urinals while granting planning permission for another kebab house to replace a shop as you've just done. The promotion as you will know from the long term and ongoing development is taking place across the whole of the inner and outer Town Centre. Gary has featured the plans often enough on this site. It can’t all be done at once. 3. When is the council going to make bus fares attractive? Warrington Borough Transport set the fares not the Council, you are best directing this question to them. 4. When is the council going to develop an infrastructure plan to deal with the bottlenecks? Plans are in the process of being developed and again drafts have appeared in the Warrington Plan and discussed at Supporting the Local Economy. 5. We know slowing traffic down will not reduce accident numbers or improve the environment or reduce congestion. So why are you spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on it? And your evidence for this conclusion is what? I just hope I don't have to wait for a response to these for as long as my previous question asking you to give examples of when a council consultation/survey/pilot led to a change in the direction of a policy. What? - if I ever miss picking up on a question you can always raise it at Full Council as a member of the public - don't necessarily wait for me to pick it up - I always have two surgeries a month to discuss issues. Note:- these are Geoff's views and there is no guarnantee that you or anyone else might agree with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 1. When are the council going to close large parts of their own loss-making car parks and stop subsidising staff parking by shifting the burden for it onto shoppers and local businesses as they attempt to make a profit on parking? These issues are under constant review and assessed each year – as to when I don’t know who knows what the future holds - - the council always appreciate suggestions the problem is that few people engage in any survey these days – public or private. Because you ignore answers you don't like. 2. When is the council going to promote development of the town centre rather than out of town retail parks which would encourage people to use public transport? And when I say 'promote' the town centre, I don't mean spending a fortune on big plant pots/urinals while granting planning permission for another kebab house to replace a shop as you've just done. The promotion as you will know from the long term and ongoing development is taking place across the whole of the inner and outer Town Centre. Gary has featured the plans often enough on this site. It can’t all be done at once. But it doesn't exhibit any joined-up thinking. 3. When is the council going to make bus fares attractive? Warrington Borough Transport set the fares not the Council, you are best directing this question to them. Why doesn't the council work with WBT on the issue? They have influence, members of the public don't. 4. When is the council going to develop an infrastructure plan to deal with the bottlenecks? Plans are in the process of being developed and again drafts have appeared in the Warrington Plan and discussed at Supporting the Local Economy. OK. So we wait and see. 5. We know slowing traffic down will not reduce accident numbers or improve the environment or reduce congestion. So why are you spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on it? And your evidence for this conclusion is what? The council's own report on its pilot scheme. Which it ignored, presumably because the decision to do this had already been taken and the pilot was there to dress it up, but didn't produce the necessary results. I just hope I don't have to wait for a response to these for as long as my previous question asking you to give examples of when a council consultation/survey/pilot led to a change in the direction of a policy. What? - if I ever miss picking up on a question you can always raise it at Full Council as a member of the public - don't necessarily wait for me to pick it up - I always have two surgeries a month to discuss issues. Note:- these are Geoff's views and there is no guarnantee that you or anyone else might agree with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 And which roads that are bus routes and being closed - news to me? You are supporting the closure of Harpers Road - which is a bus route - to through traffic. That's what this whole thread is about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Bus fares are too expensive. Saying it is down to Warrington Transport is a bit of a cop out.... isn't Warrington Transport owned largely by the council? If so, Tell them to reduce the fares and stop spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on greener buses because no one is using the ones they have got. Save the money and slash the fares; then when the buses are full you will have spare money to spend on new buses???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Ah, but apparently in council la-la land a bus with slightly lower emissions is greener even when it's running empty most of the time because the fares are too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 To be fair to Geoff, I think his point is that a strongly worded letter from an individual member of the public is clearly more effective than a meeting with the major shareholder of the business who is also responsible for local infrastructure, transport plans, retail development, housing etc who has the ability to work on setting services and fare levels. We should also use inconvenient and expensive bus services rather than cars to travel around town to the various retail parks the council keeps approving. Or we can travel to the town centre by bus and walk half a mile to Bridge Street to gawp at the big plant pots and the latest kebab house the council has approved to replace a failed shop. And if Linda Dirir has her way, using a car will soon be so time consuming and annoying thanks to the 20mph limits that we'll all be forced to just keep using our cars anyway, but complaining more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Even the oldest buses would be green if they could provide the required service that would get motorists off the roads , but buses need to be cheap ,reliable ,frequent ,have a comprehensive network & not just run during office hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 ...and, of course, if local councillors who moan about the tax paying employees at office buildings (which were granted planning permission by the council) parking their cars perfectly legally on public streets didn't - with their very next breath - advocate closing the road used by the only bus service to those very office buildings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 ...and, of course, if local councillors who moan about the tax paying employees at office buildings (which were granted planning permission by the council) parking their cars perfectly legally on public streets didn't - with their very next breath - advocate closing the road used by the only bus service to those very office buildings! Unless of course you're talking about council employees who enjoy subsidised parking unlike, say, the people who shop in Lymm and Stockton Heath who contribute to profit making car parks AND support local business but who the council would still like to contribute more. Come on Geoff. Somebody in the council must be able to see the many disconnects between the rhetoric and the reality of conflicting objectives, politics, dogma, buck-passing, outright stupidity and whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 The real disconnect goes far deeper than that! One the one hand we have the faceless council officials who make the actual decisions which affect all of our lives, but are never held accountable when the regularly screw it up. And on the other we have the elected posturing puppets who simply blame everything that goes wrong on the council officials or on "procedural errors" but never, ever take any real responsibility for the portfolios they are entrusted with and handsomely rewarded for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 ...and, of course, if local councillors who moan about the tax paying employees at office buildings (which were granted planning permission by the council) parking their cars perfectly legally on public streets didn't - with their very next breath - advocate closing the road used by the only bus service to those very office buildings! The NCA have funded a 3 year bus service to and from the local railway stations as part of their travel to work scheme. Access only does not CLOSE the road and certainly does not stop the 28 from using it. http://www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/articles/18071/1/Anger-over-councils-rat-run-decision/Page1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 The real disconnect goes far deeper than that! One the one hand we have the faceless council officials who make the actual decisions which affect all of our lives, but are never held accountable when the regularly screw it up. And on the other we have the elected posturing puppets who simply blame everything that goes wrong on the council officials or on "procedural errors" but never, ever take any real responsibility for the portfolios they are entrusted with and handsomely rewarded for. To be fair, they're not all faceless. We all must be aware of Andy Farrall who joined the council to head up Environment and Regeneration fresh from the help he gave explaining to the High Court how a huge glass making plant came to be built without planning permission or environmental certiifcation while he was working at Chester. Somehow, he was exactly the right person to come in to sort out the crisis and scandal ridden planning function at WBC. On an unrelated point, if the council is so skint, how come it gave (or is giving) serious consideration to lending £42 million to a recently loss-making Internet retailer to build a warehouse (ho-hum) at Omega? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 The NCA have funded a 3 year bus service to and from the local railway stations as part of their travel to work scheme.Access only does not CLOSE the road and certainly does not stop the 28 from using it. http://www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/articles/18071/1/Anger-over-councils-rat-run-decision/Page1.html Access only DOES close the road to through traffic - and that is what buses by their very nature, are. Or are you now modifying your position to call for access only except buses? And if the road remains unobstructed over its entire length to allow buses to run, how on earth were you expecting to police and enforce an access only declaration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Hi Grey Man - I selected 'quote' and the system presented me with this format i.e. your suplementary questions 1. Because you ignore answers you don't like. I thought the I was replying to questions? 2. But it doesn't exhibit any joined-up thinking. How about this http://www.warrington.gov.uk/info/200145/business_and_trade/1174/warrington_means_business 3. Why doesn't the council work with WBT on the issue? They have influence, members of the public don't. I'm sure that they can offer support and guidance. 4. OK. So we wait and see. OK 5. The council's own report on its pilot scheme. Which it ignored, presumably because the decision to do this had already been taken and the pilot was there to dress it up, but didn't produce the necessary results. It did show evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Actually Geoff, the report showed an increase in collisions in two of the three piloted areas despite a reduction in the numbers of cars using the roads. There was a slight increase in one other and overall no difference whatsoever. In any case the numbers of collisions involved is very small. Have you read it? As for Warrington Means Business, you have to be careful that you're not confusing what the council does with what would happen anyway. Not only that, it proves the point about lack of joined up thinking given the parlous state of local infrastructure. It's all very well creating industrial parks, retail parks and housing estates but what are you doing with the roads and other infrastructure? Looks to me like you're actively making them less useful. (And when I say 'you' I mean the council obv. I genuinely appreciate councillors who engage in dialogue.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted April 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'd still like to know what evidence there is that Harpers Road is actually being used as a "rat run" by non-residents (which most of us would just call a possible route from where we are to where we're going) anyway. The local residents on here have reported that there is often queuing traffic at either end during peak times - fair enough. But then there are, as Geoff has stated some 825 houses for which this road is the sole access. Let's say that each house generates on average 1.5 cars leaving the area during the morning peak hours to go to work, take kids to school, go shopping, travel to college, whatever. Now a mid sized car, Ford Focus or similar, is about 15 feet long so 825 houses times 1.5 cars each times 15 feet, and then add in a 3 foot gap between queuing cars and it's obvious that the residents cars alone would produce a line of traffic 7400 yards long if they all left at the same time - that's 4.2 miles of cars from the residents alone! Hardly surprising that there's a bit of a queue either end at peak times, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Wasn't Harpers Road built as a through access road originally ,because more or less soon after Fearnhead Lane was blocked & i'm sure it was several years before the expressway was finished from Orford Road to Crab Lane/ Woolston Grange Avenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Actually Geoff, the report showed an increase in collisions in two of the three piloted areas despite a reduction in the numbers of cars using the roads. There was a slight increase in one other and overall no difference whatsoever. In any case the numbers of collisions involved is very small. Have you read it? As for Warrington Means Business, you have to be careful that you're not confusing what the council does with what would happen anyway. Not only that, it proves the point about lack of joined up thinking given the parlous state of local infrastructure. It's all very well creating industrial parks, retail parks and housing estates but what are you doing with the roads and other infrastructure? Looks to me like you're actively making them less useful. (And when I say 'you' I mean the council obv. I genuinely appreciate councillors who engage in dialogue.) Actually Geoff, the report showed an increase in collisions in two of the three piloted areas despite a reduction in the numbers of cars using the roads. There was a slight increase in one other and overall no difference whatsoever. In any case the numbers of collisions involved is very small. Have you read it? Yes and I attended the consultation meeting at the Gateway – it was a while ago – I know Mr King spoke. As for Warrington Means Business, you have to be careful that you're not confusing what the council does with what would happen anyway. What are you a mystic man? I’m talking about the work commissioned by the council that leads to private and public enterprise taking a stake in these quarters enhancing and developing along the lines of the vision of the Warrington Means Business. Not only that, it proves the point about lack of joined up thinking given the parlous state of local infrastructure. Excuse me why? It's all very well creating industrial parks, retail parks and housing estates but what are you doing with the roads and other infrastructure? Looks to me like you're actively making them less useful. I am referring to the Inner and Outer Town Centre. As for the Infrastructure the outline plans do encompass the roads and rail network – big changes around Bank Quay station for the rail and other considerations for relief to the road network in the same area – the exact detail though has not been pinned down for issues that have yet to be ironed out – but the vision is that they it is part of a joined up thinking approach. Also announced today https://remote.warrington.gov.uk/news/article/1191/,DanaInfo=www.warrington.gov.uk+warrington_borough_council%E2%80%99s_stadium_quarter_to_be_home_to_%C2%A38_5_million_business_incubator (And when I say 'you' I mean the council obv. I genuinely appreciate councillors who engage in dialogue.) I think that’s a positive note to finish on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'd still like to know what evidence there is that Harpers Road is actually being used as a "rat run" by non-residents (which most of us would just call a possible route from where we are to where we're going) anyway. The local residents on here have reported that there is often queuing traffic at either end during peak times - fair enough. But then there are, as Geoff has stated some 825 houses for which this road is the sole access. Let's say that each house generates on average 1.5 cars leaving the area during the morning peak hours to go to work, take kids to school, go shopping, travel to college, whatever. Now a mid sized car, Ford Focus or similar, is about 15 feet long so 825 houses times 1.5 cars each times 15 feet, and then add in a 3 foot gap between queuing cars and it's obvious that the residents cars alone would produce a line of traffic 7400 yards long if they all left at the same time - that's 4.2 miles of cars from the residents alone! Hardly surprising that there's a bit of a queue either end at peak times, is it? I'd still like to know what evidence there is that Harpers Road is actually being used as a "rat run" by non-residents (which most of us would just call a possible route from where we are to where we're going) anyway. There was evidence from a Woolston resident admitting they use Harpers Road to go from their house in Manchester Road to Birchwood High School every morning they wanted the road to remain the way it is. Also inferred evidence from Woolston Parish Council who argued that if Access Only was made their roads would feel the build up of traffic that couldn't use the "Rat Run" I have stood at either end of the road doing traffic surveys in the morning. At 7:50 one morning approximately 40 vehicles passed me on Station Road, turning into Harpers road nose to tail in one minute – this was a peak measurement. Ok it’s not verifiable and I did not take down all the registration numbers or follow them down the road but it made me think. The local residents on here have reported that there is often queuing traffic at either end during peak times - fair enough. But then there are, as Geoff has stated some 825 houses for which this road is the sole access. Let's say that each house generates on average 1.5 cars leaving the area during the morning peak hours to go to work, take kids to school, go shopping, travel to college, whatever. Now a mid sized car, Ford Focus or similar, is about 15 feet long so 825 houses times 1.5 cars each times 15 feet, and then add in a 3 foot gap between queuing cars and it's obvious that the residents cars alone would produce a line of traffic 7400 yards long if they all left at the same time - that's 4.2 miles of cars from the residents alone! Disagree. Hardly surprising that there's a bit of a queue either end at peak times, is it? No and no one is disputing that there is a queue – I’m surprised that in this day and age we haven’t got the smart technology to track vehicles movements passing up and down roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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