Lt Kije Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Immigrants taken as a whole Obs pay more into the tax system than they take out, this you already new. There are to many old dependants due to the baby boomers not enough working tax payers, one of the reasons they have raised the age of retirement to stop even more people joining the old dependants, again you already new, immigrant tax payers, which is most of them, contribute to your state pension. So will you be willing to sacrifice some of your pension, or will you expect the working to pay more tax, to keep you in the manner you are accustomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Kije... if you have a spare hour, have a read of this from the migration observatory at Oxford University... http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk it shows that things aren't quite as black and white as you like to think and that if you insist on trying to tie Obs down to his pension question you may read that as immigrants get older, there has to be an ever increasing supply of more immigrants to pay for them too... quite where they are all going to live is another thing, but the pages in the link cover that too and also try to explain why indigenous job seekers are pushed out of the market by low skilled immigrants and then end up in social rather than private housing which then increases their demands from the state. A look at this page from the Telegraph may also point to the fact that not all immigrants even have to pay tax and NI in the UK as some can and do pay taxes in their own countries while working in the UK and abroad.... so in effect they can work here, take advantage of health and social care and still pay taxes to their country of origin.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10551151/How-EU-migrants-avoid-tax-in-UK.html Oh the joys of a free labour market!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Big read, Just a quick one on your second point, UK people working in other Countries can elect to pay taxes their, at a lower rate than the UK, same loop hole, Oh the joys of a single market, it's a two way street Baz. I agree they are not black and white Baz, perhaps you might tell Obs that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Big read, Just a quick one on your second point, UK people working in other Countries can elect to pay taxes their, at a lower rate than the UK, same loop hole, Oh the joys of a single market, it's a two way street Baz. how can it be a two way street if person A (Henry) who is British and is working in say Romania (I know; unlikely to happen but bear with me)... He has a wife and two kids who have stayed at home but Henry is the only worker in the family. His family use the UK schools, doctors, dentists etc etc; in other words they are a user of state amenities.... they may even qualify for benefits because Henry decides to pay HIS tax in Romania where it is only about 16% of total earnings apparently... he keeps some for himself and sends the rest home; so the only tax the UK gets from his money is when Mrs Henry goes to the shops or puts petrol in the family Bentley. Person B (Anatolie) is Romanian... he wears his big blue Nike onesie everywhere he goes in London and likes it so much he brings his family here too... He also has a wife (Anica) and two little Romanians; Andrei & Antanasia who attend the local school and the doctors and dentist etc etc..... but Anatolie pays his taxes back to Romania.... so who is the loser in all this? Romania gets all the tax and the UK get all the burdens.... not a two-way street, or even a one way street.... more like a dead end to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 What's amazing Baz, he actually believes he's right ! It's his mentality in the political class that's sleepwalked us into this mess in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 What if Henry worked in Sweden Baz,? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Obs, your politics is based on lies and deceit, it is a fact at the. Moment that immigrants pay in more to the system than they take out, so will you answer my pension question or not. Will you take a cut in your pension, or will you expect the over burdened tax payer to pay for what you are going to vote for,???? Put your pension where your mouth is, come clean! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 What if Henry worked in Sweden Baz,? He doesn't, He works in Romania.... now answer the point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Your beginning to sound rather pathetic Kije; my pension DOESN'T "depend" on immigrants, but if we believe you, your's might, hence your apparent jealousy of the baby boomers ! All future social spending will depend on creating a financial surplus by increasing exports and decreasing unnecessary expenditure (like overseas aid); it will also depend on collecting all taxes owed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Sadly Obs, your state pension is payed for by the working, which includes immigrants, my only problem with the baby boomers, is/was every governments failure to plan for the boomers retirement everyone new of the problem but failed to do anything about it, every government we have had has tried to boost exports, what makes you think Mr Farage will do any better, I think he will do very poorly as most foreign governments will not like him, which will worsen our financial situation, so will you continue to avoid the question, are you willing to take a cut in your State pension to get your way, it is a simple question. Your overseas aid crap will do nothing to fill the tax gap the immigrants will leave. Stop putting up smoke screens and tell us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Sadly I'm not into cutting and pasting; but Immigration Watch (no doubt biased from your point of view) have just produced a report, with data suggesting that immigration has actually cost the UK £billions over the last 17 years. When you start to think about it, it's not surprising, as only those without dependents and earning more than the tax threshold, will be net contributors - the rest are a net cost to the tax-payer. Education and Health, and benefits for their wives and kids; costs of processing asylum seekers, plus their housing, food and legal aid. As for Farage, your completely missing the point; Farage will never see the inside of number 10; the function of UKIP imo, is merely to bring the main Parties agendas in line with public opinion; which they will do, cos failiure to do so would see Farage into No10. Hence, the unofficial "IN/OUT" referendum on EU membership will be held this May ! As for "pensions"; as I don't concede they rely on immigrants it's a non-argument and thus irrelevant to the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 No immigrants paying National insurance means a short fall, so will you take a cut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 You simply don't get Kije: I doubt those cleaning cars or working in the black market will be paying NI; those on asylum appeals won't either; and the "illegals" who've dropped off the radar certainly won't. Try the Immigration Watch report; think it's cost us £179billion over the past 17 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Typical Kije.... badgers you to answer his question but totally ignores mine because he knows I'm right and there is no argument against it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I all ready have Baz but I will spell it out for you as it went over your head, Sweden is a high tax Country, so Brutish people working their can take the same advantages, the things you have pointed out are open for British citizens to take advantage of, are you with it now. Come on Obs answer the question???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I all ready have Baz but I will spell it out for you as it went over your head, Sweden is a high tax Country, so Brutish people working their can take the same advantages, the things you have pointed out are open for British citizens to take advantage of, are you with it now. Come on Obs answer the question???? Kije... You haven't.... read it again.... no mention of Sweden; you mentioned Sweden not me, I don't want to talk about Sweden.... I was pointing out the scenario if they come from or work in a low tax country - which is most of Eastern Europe where most of the immigrants come from.... I don't see masses of blonde haired Swedish people milling about the streets of Tottenham at 5am waiting for a days work, I see masses of Eastern Europeans - hence the scenario.... or is that "over your head" as you so incorrectly tried to throw at me? I posted a scenario where a British person working in Romania and a Romanian working in the UK can both pay tax in Romania because it is cheaper, if the Romanian has his family over here with him that is two families, four kids at school all using UK services and we get no tax from either worker to support any of them... Are you deliberately not answering the point or are you just completely stupid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think the latter Baz, as I've told him more than three times now, that I don't believe pensions depend on immigration, therefore his "question" is irrelevant. Notice also, that he totally ignores all the points put to him, presumably cos he's got no answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Now Baz, using your scenario, use a English man instead of a Rumanian and use the Country of Sweden, there you have the same tax break the Rumanian gets the English man gets, it's equal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Now Baz, using your scenario, use a English man instead of a Rumanian and use the Country of Sweden, there you have the same tax break the Rumanian gets the English man gets, it's equal You really are an annoying bugger Kije.... I was using the Romanian example (which also applies to Polish and Bulgarian and all the other countries of the EU) but I was using the Romanian model because there are in excess of 700,000 of them over here at the moment and about 10 Swedish people..... It isn't a two way street when there are hundreds of thousands more Romanians than Swedish We are being ripped off and you know it but have backed yourself into a corner and are trying to wriggle out of it If the numbers of Swedes was equal to the number of Romanians in the UK (or UK residents working in Sweden) you would have a point..... but there aren't and your argument (as usual) is nonsense. In May we will have an unofficial EU referendum and your luvvie party will cease to exist at local level.... then if the only party offering an in-out referendum at the next general election is the Tories; I will vote Tory in order to stand a chance of getting one and I hope every UKIP voter will do the same..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I no why you used the Rumanian example Baz, , but you forget that many British people make use of the free movement of a Labour within Europe, and if the country they are working in has high tax they can elect to do the same thing, your example becomes a bag of crap when you take that into account, it's as not as one sided as you make out, as the are British citizens working in other Countries doing exactly the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Keep hearing these references to Brits working elsewhere; no doubt there are, but can't see them working in Rumania for 5 kopecks a day, what you may get is retired grumpies living in the sunshine and spending their winter fuel allowance on cheaper goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 So all of the estimated 5.5 million British living and working abroad are retired grumpies? Get a grip. Whilst I'm on about cuckoos, I see a UKIP councillor is trying to convince the world that the floods are the result of the legalisation of gay marriage. What a bunch of numpties that lot are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Think you need to get a grip - 5.5 million ? Working? The "UKIP councillor" is no longer a "UKIP member"' thought with your penchant for substituting gossip for argument, you'd have raised Nigel's alleged extra-marital activity ! Can't have policies getting in the way of personalities can we, so keep playing the man instead of the ball, it's about all you've got for May !. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 There are over 150 thousand working in France alone Obs You might also find this interesting http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz2w2Ywaqf4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 No doubt, and if the French are prepared to have them in, fine; probably loads elsewhere in the world too, but I doubt there's a rush of Brits to Rumania or Bulgaria; unless they're sun seeking grumpies! However, what there is in Bulgaria (according to the Telegraph) is a rush of non-EU immigrants, paying £150,000 for EU citizenship documentation, then moving on to the UK and other "lifeboat" countries for "a better life". Such is the chaos of the EU and immigration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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