Nelson Mandela RIP

[Robbo]

As far as I am aware Adams and McGuiness were never convicted of killing anyone, but according to Asp Mandela was, so simple question cos I don't know - Who did Mandela kill? 

[asperity]

It was indifference such as yours that kept a racist regime in power for so long, You seem to be more bothered by white farmers than the miss deeds of the apartheid regime, are you sure colour has nothing to do with your view? I condone any death irrespective of colour, I am sure the police would investigate. You seem to be getting some of your facts from the truth about South Africa web site, do you no anything about the writer?

What a load of ignorant garbage!! It was international pressure that saw off apartheid, not terrorism. Do you think it's okay for white farmers to be massacred? Do you think it was okay for innocent blacks to be murdered for not supporting terrorists? And your statement - quote "I condone any death" probably isn't a mis-type.

 

What is the truth about South Africa website? I've never heard of it.

[Bazj]

Baz if you had bothered to read, I have said South Africa is better without Aparthied. Can't understand why Asp will not answer the question, blacks in South Africa now have better access to university's and general education, surly that is a good thing?

 

and how they have exploited that ability to learn and the ability to forgive that Mandela gave them..... or maybe not...

 

with a guest appearance by the wonderful deaf signer who made such a mockery out of the Mandela memorial. Apparently it was the first time he had such an episode that prevented him being able to sign properly.... I think he needs to re-visit that statement!

 

[asperity]

Nice people eh Lt Kije?

[observer]

Robbo, you don't have to personally "kill anyone" to be charged with genocide, merely be considered "responsible" as part of the  leadership of the organisation that committed the offence(s);  hence the top Nazis were tried at the Nuremburg trials, and hanged. The ANC (like the IRA) had a political wing and a military wing, the latter commiting the acts of terrorism, that resulted in the deaths of innocents. In order to get a political settlement, such allegations were written off with the Good Friday Agreement in N/Ireland and the Truth and Reconciliation process in S/Africa. It now remains for the BBC to continue there wall to wall coverage for the next few days, to witness the stone being rolled back and the ascent on a cloud to heaven !

[Davy51]

Some of the common people who were not at the organised event were not all that impressed with ANC policies & were bemoaning the 50%  unemployment ,broken promises &  corruption.

[Robbo]

So if he didn't 'kill' anyone how could he be a 'convicted killer'. If you are saying that folk only have to be 'responsible' then Blair and Thatcher should have been convicted killers.

[Lt Kije]

Baz 

 

its an old ANC war song so what !!!!!!!!

 

Under Apartied, cis had no access to the main education system, limited access to health care ect, Now things are a long way from being perfect over their, but for Black people its a lot better than it was

[Lt Kije]

Asp

 

 The ANC told the World what was going on, the people then put pressure on there respective governments, Except Maggie looked the other way, she liked the mining contracts, blacks be damned was her motto, And to think, you think she was the best thing since sliced bread. Maggie was a fan of apartheid to the embarrassment of Tories today, and even they are saying she was wrong, as wrong as you are now.

[observer]

Rob; who said he was a "convicted killer"? Not me.  Alleged "responsibility" lies with those at the top of any organisation, therefore I agree, certainly Bliar, should have been tried for war crimes imo. But at the end of the day, politics is about expediency not necessarily justice, and in any case, the winner dictates the history.  A US Airforce General (Lemay) said, after being responsible for the strategic bombing of Japan; "if we (the Allies) had lost the war, I'd have been tried for war crimes"!

[Bazj]

Baz 

 

its an old ANC war song so what !!!!!!!!

 

Under Apartied, cis had no access to the main education system, limited access to health care ect, Now things are a long way from being perfect over their, but for Black people its a lot better than it was

 

Mandela was more than capable of violence; after the ANC became a banned organisation, he illegally left the country and attended "military training in Algeria" what we would class today as a "terrorist training camp".... He may well have achieved great things in some eyes, but he and the ANC were prepared to take power at any cost

 

Kije, go to youtube and search for "The Truth on the ANC and South Africa.mov" I won't post the video because a) it is over half an hour long and b.) it shows horrific violence inflicted on black by blacks in the ANC..... Watch it all the way through.... it is a bit of an eye opener. It was filmed a long time ago but most is still relevant

 

The ANC were a communist backed organisation who were desperate for power at all costs; even at the expense of the "own" people. The ANC during apartheid were not even the majority party for the blacks....

 

The ANC used horrific tactics in order to "persuade" blacks to vote for them including the murder by necklacing of black policemen, doctors, teachers, businessmen and others who were advocating negotiating with the white rulers.

 

I will apologise now to anyone who does watch the video; it does include scenes of necklacing and i

[Lt Kije]

The ANC was not a communist organisation, it had people that were communists in it, it was backed by many organisations and African Countries .

 

Who made the movie Baz?

[Bazj]

The ANC was not a communist organisation, it had people that were communists in it, it was backed by many organisations and African Countries . Who made the movie Baz?

 

watch it and decide.....

 

but the ANC was a very publically backed communist organisation Kije...the hammer and sickle flags were often backdrops at their rallies and it has even been reported that Mandela himself was a member of the SA Communist party and only changed their allegiances following the build up to the fall of communism in the east; knowing they would have picked the wrong side and been denied all sorts of western assistance once apartheid had ended

[fugtifino]

Leftie news website obituary:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22892784

 

"There are members of the ANC who are killing our people… We must face the truth. Our people are just as involved as other organisations that are committing violence… We cannot climb to freedom on the corpses of innocent people."

 

Heh, sounds worse than a thousand Hitlers.

[Lt Kije]

Who made the movie Baz?

[asperity]

Mandela thanked Maggie for her assistance in persuading the SA government to abandon apartheid Lt Kije. Why would he do that? Also, if blacks were denied education, how did Mandela himself manage to get educated, up to and including a degree, in South Africa?

 

And of course the ANC was a communist, and communist backed, organisation from the start. You just don't want to see what is in front of your own nose.

[Robbo]

"Rob, who said he was a convicted killer? Not me."

 

So why do you keep answering me?

The person who said it wont answer.

[Lt Kije]

The Tory party have fallen over themselves to apologise for Maggie being a supporter of apartheid Asp, as you already know, as to education why don't you read what I actually wrote.

 

The ANC had communists in it, but was not a communist organisation, The SACP was the communist party. Nelson Mandela also stated that he was never a member.

[observer]

Think you need to remember the context: most insurgent "freedom" movements were backed by the USSR, who operated via their communist affiliates; it was the period of "the cold war" after all; and in this conflict by proxy, naturally, "capitalist" Governments (the West); tended to support the status quo, hence US and UK support for right wing regimes throughout the world, including white S/Africa. However, this began to dissipate with advent of the anti-apartheid movement, economic sanctions and the end of the cold war.

[asperity]

Who knows more about what Maggie's motives were Lt Kije, you or a man at the centre of things at the time?

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hkt5DTQ7NQ3YaQ2R2OTIlSB0pCew?docId=3d9a1c5a-ec7f-42ae-a1d3-27ee060f91e5

 

 

And if you can't be bothered to read it, here is just one quote from it:

 

"Margaret Thatcher understood this," he wrote. "Although she was a consistent critic of apartheid, she had no illusions about the challenges that we faced."

F.W.de Klerk

[Lt Kije]

Mr de Klerk, was hardly going to let down an Allie

 

Here's another

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/09/peter-hain-tories-mandela-apartheid-regime

 

If you can be bothered to read it.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html

 

You believe the bullshit if you want, I'll stick with what the Tory's are saying

[Bazj]

Who made the movie Baz?

 

No idea.... I just see what is in the content of the film... knowing who made it only clouds the judgement of those who view it. No doubt you know who made it which is why you are playing your childish little games again.... all I saw were blacks being burned alive by other blacks (who were supporters of the ANC)... you will no doubt tell us that didn't happen because Mandela was a god, a man of peace... although the bit showing his wife spouting off was an eye opener??

 

The film (whether made by pro-apartheid or anti-apartheid showed leaders of other black groups in SA saying not very nice things about the ANC... not white people Kije, but blacks....

 

or did that not happen either?

[asperity]

Peter Hain criticizes the Tories!! Wow nobody saw that coming :roll:

 

David Cameron apologises for events in British history!! That's never happened before :roll:

 

Have you never heard of political expediency Lt Kije? Politicians will say anything if they think it will gain them some popularity.

 

As for your comment about F.W. de Klerk, after all it was him that dismantled apartheid not Mandela - something all you Mandela worshippers seem to overlook.

[Bazj]

 Nelson Mandela also stated that he was never a member.

He also stated he wasn't a terrorist!!

 

Statement issued by the South African Communist Party, December 6 2013

 

SACP statement on the passing away of Madiba

 

 

"...the true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love"

Last night the millions of the people of South Africa, majority of whom the working class and poor, and the billions of the rest of the people the world over, lost a true revolutionary, President Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, Tata Madiba.

 

The South African Communist Party (SACP) joins the people of South Africa and the world in expressing its most sincere condolences to Ms Graca Machel and the entire Mandela family on the loss of what President Zuma correctly described as South Africa's greatest son, Comrade Mandela. We also wish to use this opportunity to express our solidarity with the African National Congress, an organisation that produced him and that he also served with distinction, as well as all his colleagues and comrades in our broader liberation movement. As Tata Madiba said:

"It is not the kings and generals that make history but the masses of the people, the workers, the peasants..."

 

The passing away of Cde Mandela marks an end to the life of one of the greatest revolutionaries of the 20th century, who fought for freedom and against all forms of oppression in both their countries and globally. As part of the masses that make history, Cde Mandela's contribution in the struggle for freedom was located and steeled in the collective membership and leadership of our revolutionary national liberation movement as led by the ANC - for he was not an island. In Cde Mandela we had a brave and courageous soldier, patriot and internationalist who, to borrow from Che Guevara, was a true revolutionary guided by great feelings of love for his people, an outstanding feature of all genuine people's revolutionaries.

 

At his arrest in August 1962, Nelson Mandela was not only a member of the then underground South African Communist Party, but was also a member of our Party's Central Committee. To us as South African communists, Cde Mandela shall forever symbolise the monumental contribution of the SACP in our liberation struggle. The contribution of communists in the struggle to achieve the South African freedom has very few parallels in the history of our country. After his release from prison in 1990, Cde Madiba became a great and close friend of the communists till his last days.

 

The one major lesson we need to learn from Mandela and his generation of leaders was their commitment to principled unity within each of our Alliance formations as well as the unity of our Alliance as a whole and that of the entire mass democratic movement. Their generation struggled to build and cement the unity of our Alliance, and we therefore owe it to the memory of Cde Madiba to preserve the unity of our Alliance. Let those who do not understand the extent to which blood was spilt in pursuance of Alliance unity be reminded not to throw mud at the legacy and memory of the likes of  Madiba by being reckless and gambling with the unity of our Alliance.

 

The SACP supported Madiba's championing of national reconciliation. But national reconciliation for him never meant avoiding tackling the class and other social inequalities in our society, as some would like to make us believe today. For Madiba, national reconciliation was a platform to pursue the objective of building a more egalitarian South African society free of the scourge of racism, patriarchy and gross inequalities. And true national reconciliation shall never be achieved in a society still characterized by the yawning gap of inequalities and capitalist exploitation.

 

In honour of this gallant fighter the SACP will intensify the struggle against all forms of inequality, including intensifying the struggle for socialism, as the only political and economic solution to the problems facing humanity.

 

For the SACP the passing away of Madiba must give all those South Africans who had not fully embraced a democratic South Africa, and who still in one way or the other hanker to the era of white domination, a second chance to come to terms with a democratic South Africa founded on the principle of majority rule.

 

We call upon all South Africans to emulate his example of selflessness, sacrifice, commitment and service to his people.

 

The SACP says Hamba kahle Mkhonto!

[Lt Kije]

De Klerk had no choice, the writing had been on the wall for a couple of years, sadly Botha as a racist turned a blind eye, De Klerk was a realist and new it was all over.

David Cameron apologised for a specific event in Tory history, ie getting it wrong on apartheid, and he was write to do so.

 

 

Baz

 

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Mandela-was-never-a-member-of-the-Communist-Party-20131211