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Soldiers or Terrorists


Lt Kije

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British Soldiers were doing their duty and ridding the world of terrorist scum; just like the lad in Afghanistan that has been found guilty of murder (purely to satisfy the "outraged" brigade)

 

There are times when the ends justify the means and if it means that soldiers or whoever, operate secretly to carry out those duties; then so be it. They should not be subject to the "normal" laws of engagement.... because you can sure as hell guarantee that any terrorist will not play the game like we do. If it means we have to do things that aren't very nice then they have to be done.

 

There were NO victims when it comes to a dead terrorist.... the word "victim" applies only to the dead men, women and children that were the results of their actions. Only people like you class terrorists and their families as "victims".... I certainly do not 

 

 

The soldiers involved made it clear that any knowledge of their actions would be denied by the government of the day if they were to fall into IRA hands. No ID would be carried.

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They had a referendum, where most of Ireland voted for independence; however, the majority in Ulster voted to stay a part of the UK. That being the case, any armed insurrection against the UK in Ulster is treason. The problem all along, was that these "troubles" were dignified by the term "war", when in reality all the para-militaries were criminals acting outside the law, and thus the term "illegal" is a rather blurred concept.

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Hang on, the Protestants kept control of local government by boundary changing, the Catholics also ended up in the worst areas, the Protestants have to take 50% of the blame for the troubles as they treated the Catholics as second class. Ireland has been ruled bupy the UK, but it impute be accepted that the majority of the population of Ireland did not want it, The UK imported Protestants from Scotland with the promice of land, that is why the majority in the the North are Protestant .

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I would take issue with the statement that "the UK invaded Ireland". English involvement in Ireland long predates any concept of "the UK",and Ireland was never what could be called an independent state before the present Republic was born. The English aristocracy had possession of most of the land. You are correct about Scottish Protestants being imported into Ulster, although if "1066 and all that" is to be believed they were only going home!!!

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Think your getting mixed up Kije. They had a plebiscite (1920 something?), in which those living in what is now the Republic, voted for independence. However, the majority (protestants) living in Ulster wished to remain a part of the UK. To have granted Independence to the whole of Ireland would have led to a bloody civil war, and so the compromise of keeping Ulster within the Union was reached. This "compromise" led to a civil war in any case (in Eire), between De Valera's faction and Michael Collins who negotiated the agreement. I won't dispute the fact that Catholics were treated as second class citizens. As for the immigration of Scots (originally an Irish tribe!) Protestants into Ulster, that was in the 18th Century (and I thought you had no objection to immigration anyway?!). As for British involvement in Ireland; the Normans followed the Vikings in colonising it; at a time when it consisted of a collection of warring tribes, without any notion of being "Irish".

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Obs, I was talking about long before the 1920s

 

The Catholics in Ireland have never accepted or liked would be a better word Protestant UK control. I do not agree with their methods but they have been fighting for what they consider to be theirs. after the formation of the Republic, the Catholics in the North were treated as second class citizens by the Protestants and did have some genuine issues. The UK government should have taken direct control of Northern Ireland sooner and should not have allowed the Catholics to be treated as second class citizens, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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Hasn't all this been a problem since the days of Henry VIII th & then Oliver Cromwell. That was in the days of intolerance to everything that was a different view to the monarch or government of the day ...the days when witches were being persecuted  & the country was ruled by fear. Today's  modern times should have moved on far enough for people on both sides to see through  the manipulation that has kept this problem an open festering wound. The BBC programme made intriguing tv but was it really  a responsible act to poke the wound that has been healing recently & each new generation had the opportunity    to move on from the  "troubles"  & consign them to history ?

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The Protestant Scots were moved into Northern Ireland in the 16th century, so whatever you may think about the rights or wrongs of the policy they were the landowners (of land stolen if you like - but we are talking about a different age) for over 300 years before the partition of Ireland. The problems were certainly caused by the mistreatment of the Catholic minority, but terrorism by the IRA was never the answer.

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Steve the Original

 

I see you have a talent, the same as Baz's, reading wrongly between the lines, how pathetic. Anyone not of the identical opinion to you is wrong.

 

Do you have a bulldog called Britannia, hang in a minute you live in Germany perhaps you call it Churchill, you sound like you are of that mentality :wink:

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Steve the Original I see you have a talent, the same as Baz's, reading wrongly between the lines, how pathetic. Anyone not of the identical opinion to you is wrong. Do you have a bulldog called Britannia, hang in a minute you live in Germany perhaps you call it Churchill, you sound like you are of that mentality :wink:

 

 

lol it makes me laugh that because you are losing the argument and you know it,so you have to revert to personal attacks and you call me Pathetic??

 

but as i am no longer a Mod on here i can say to you i may live here but i am far more British than you ever will be and love my Country more than you ever will...

 

My dog is a mongrel called spike....i bet he loves GB more than you ever will...

 

If you cant hack losing an Argument  then i suggest you leave or shut up, wonder if anyone will miss you?? i wont...

 

And just for you i am Married to a German and my Kids are English/British and my son serves his country.. and yes i am damn proud of them

 

Have you don anything to serve your Country or are you a Walter Mitty character!!!!

 

 

 

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Personal attacks

 

Where did you come up with I agreed with the Argies from, I only did what you did, and read between the lines Steve, I found that statement pathetic, which it is.

 

But when I do it back to you to take great offence, strange, may I suggest in future you read what people state and not read what is not their, and then people won't do it to you :wink:

 

I made the same leap as you did, that is all :wink:

 

Getting back to Ireland, I am an atheist, I do not really like any religion, the catholic religion is backward with its views, especially when it comes to birth control ect, at least Protestant countries in the main are more tolerant on this and many other issues, I would not give my support to them, and as The IRA tend to be Catholic and fight for Catholic values I could not support them. But if the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to leave the UK democratically I would not stand in their way.

 

And like you I presume I strongly disagree with their methods of blowing children ect up.

 

Is that good enough for you ?

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In the real world in which the rest of us live, I think you will find that the Republic of Ireland is no longer the Catholic state that you imagine that it is. Also I believe you will find that there are many non-Catholic members of the IRA because it isn't so much a religious or even political organisation, more a gangster organisation bent on making money from illegal activity. On the same note, Northern Ireland isn't a Protestant state either. Time to wake up to the real world Lt Kije and come out of fantasy land where everything is cut and dried black and white, Protestant and Catholic. So if/when a United Ireland does come about it will be a secular one, much as the UK is no longer Anglican Protestant. Sure, there will still be those people who will use religion as an excuse for violence much as they have for many years, but thats all it is - an excuse because they need the violence to give themselves a purpose however twisted. You'll be saying next that the enmity between Celtic and Rangers fans is all about religious differences and not just tribal rivalry.

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lol it makes me laugh that because you are losing the argument and you know it,so you have to revert to personal attacks and you call me Pathetic??

 

but as i am no longer a Mod on here i can say to you i may live here but i am far more British than you ever will be and love my Country more than you ever will...

 

 

 

 

 

Pot, kettle

What's being an ex Mod got to do with it?

No wonder wars start. :rolleyes:  :unsure:

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The Irish Republic is a Catholic state in that some of its laws follow the Catholic doctrine ie abortion ect, like Spain, Italy and Portugal, I would agree with you that most of its members these days are gangsters more bent on keeping what little power they think they have within their community. It's about time they woke up and smelt the coffee.

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Pot, kettle

What's being an ex Mod got to do with it?

No wonder wars start. :rolleyes:  :unsure:

Being a Mod meant i couldn't have my say i always had to be nice. now i dont 

 

Lt

 Quote"Steve the Original I see you have a talent, the same as Baz's, reading wrongly between the lines, how pathetic. Anyone not of the identical opinion to you is wrong. Do you have a bulldog called Britannia, hang in a minute you live in Germany perhaps you call it Churchill, you sound like you are of that mentality"

 

Well if that isnt personal what is?

 

When i was in NI, My personal experience were, most of the Catholics told us they disagreed with the IRA, but were to damn scared to say so..If you have a small amount of people armed to the teeth then you support them not because you want to but because they will bump you off or kneecap you if you disagree, have you any idea how much Intel we were given from Catholics about the IRA,i doubt it..

 

 

At the end of the day most wanted Peace on both sides just the hardcore wanted to fight and kill everyone and why? because a large majority were thugs and criminals who made a living by collecting for "The Boys" in pubs and clubs if you didn't give then watch your back, shopkeeper paying Protection Money ect...

 

Religion may of been the start and it may of been started hundreds of years ago and personally i dont care who started what and when or who by, the fact is the PEOPLE wanted peace and couldn't have it because of thugs and dont get me wrong this was done on both side Prod and Catholics alike.. just the IRA went to extremes and didn't care who they killed, nice to see you agreeing they shouldn't of killed kids ect...but in fact they shouldn't of killed anyone at anytime for any reason...

 

 

 

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