Lt Kije Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Obs, just look at our History, Trade with other Countries put the GREAT IN GREAT BRITAIN !!!, You are striving for something we have NEVER BEEN. We have always been a trading Nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Of course, in the days of Empire, when we had colonies to supply us with the raw materials that we then converted into finished products - when we were the workshop of the world. This all ended of course with our entry into the EU, to compete in a common market with similar economies; rather than the symbiotic relationship we had with the commonwealth. However, the picture has changed globally, with increasing world demand forcing up prices and creating shortages, wars and weather interfering with supply etc. For our future security and wellbeing, dependency on others has to be reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 No exactly the opposite, we need to trade more in a global economy Obs, not shut ourselves out of it, America tried to do it between the wars, it gained wealth when it traded and became a World economy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 The origins of "trade", are an exchange of goods that are not found or produced in one's own territory - hence the old saying "you don't sell coals to Newcastle". Generally nowadays, the things we import are on the basis of price, as cheap labour can undercut home production - hence certain stores sell clothing made in sweat shops and fire traps in India. btw I'm not ruling out "trade", I'm merely suggesting that we strive to reduce dependency on others, especially in essential economic areas, of which energy is one. If we depend on imported energy, we leave ourselves open to price hikes by suppliers, something we've experienced in the past with OPEC. So, getting right back to the beginning of the topic; we need to develop self sufficiency in energy supply, and have it under the control of the State, in order to maintain output and prices. Unfortunately, this can't be achieved in the short term with the "green energy" agenda, with it's high costs and under supply. We need more power stations utilising all the natural resources available to us, to ensure the lights don't go out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Obs, you are talking Balls (Trade Mark E.Balls) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 We are always going to depend on imported energy to some extent. Even at the height of North Sea oil production we had to import crude oil from other sources because crude oil from different parts of the world has different properties and can be exploited for different products, otherwise why would we have bothered using foreign oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Presume, like most of the stuff we import - it's cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 You really do have a very simplistic world view Obs. Of course we buy stuff from abroad because it's cheaper, it would be madness not to just because it might make us feel better about ourselves, while we starve and freeze to death. It's also good business to trade with the rest of the world as it brings in revenue. Do you know, for example, that a large proportion of motor spirit (that's petrol) produced at the Valero refinery in Pembroke goes to the USA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Obs Having read your comments, it is clear you have no idea, how our,or the World economy works, as to energy self sufficiently ask a coal miner how hard and expensive it would be to reopen are old coal mines, we did not moth ball them as we should have done they were filled and allowed to flood, you would be making people may a lot more for their energy, are you willing to pay a lot more for your energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 , are you willing to pay a lot more for your energy. we are already paying 45% more than we were in 2007...... so seeing as everyone would still moan and gripe about it; they should pump out the mines and start again.... it will work out cheaper in the long run once the foreign chaps who supply our coal and energy now realise they have us over a barrel and charge us more in the future than it would have cost if we'd opened the mines. Fuel prices will only ever rise now with green taxes and exploitation of the markets. At least having some supplies of our own may shield us for a few decades..... that's why that shale gas (fracking) needs to be speeded up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Our coal mines shut in the first place Baz, because coal was cheaper from else where, if you reopened the coal mines, the coal would be even more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 The coal is there as a reserve. It's entirely possible that at some time in the future it will become economically viable again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 True Asp, but I know something of the cost, and that time is a very long time away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Plenty of foreign coal going cheap until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 The whole point of our current trading system is to secure "cheap products"; which are "cheap" because the suppliers are generally exploited third world labour; as they gradually progress, costs will eventually rise and they'll enter the global world of consumption; as are the Chinese middle class at the moment. Increasing demand coupled with volatile climate changes and political instability, will result in increasing prices. So as the Scouts say - "Be prepared" - just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Bring back coal fired power stations and get rid of those dangerous nuclear ones!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 So Obs, your worldview is that the third world peasants should go back to their mud huts and subsistance farming and leave us in the comparative luxury we've come to enjoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Nope, quite the opposite. Merely recognising the ultimate consequences of global changes that will eventually impact on the UK. Thought you of all people would recognise storm clouds on the horizon and batten down the hatches?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 The whole point of our current trading system is to secure "cheap products"; which are "cheap" because the suppliers are generally exploited third world labour; as they gradually progress, costs will eventually rise and they'll enter the global world of consumption; as are the Chinese middle class at the moment. Increasing demand coupled with volatile climate changes and political instability, will result in increasing prices. So as the Scouts say - "Be prepared" - just saying. This is what you said, so you obviously resent the fact that the third world peasants are dragging themselves out of the gutter ("exploited third world labour" is really ignoring reality) to beat us at our own game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Nope, quite the opposite. Merely recognising the ultimate consequences of global changes that will eventually impact on the UK. Thought you of all people would recognise storm clouds on the horizon and batten down the hatches?! You recognise nothing, you are blinded by your own simplistic narrow view. Baz I don't really think you want to pay more for your energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Don't "resent" anything ASP; merely recognise the future, and therefore suggest we prepare for it in our own national interest; rather than bumping into problems when they've become a crisis. As for Kije, myopia is the hallmark of a liberal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 And how do you propose we "prepare" Obs, given that we don't have the resources to survive in isolation? Kill off 50, 60, 70% of the population? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Well, I would argue that we could have the resources; provided we start preparing now. Unfortunately, as always, we'll stumble upon the problem last minute as usual, when it will probably be too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 Baz I don't really think you want to pay more for your energy. And what do you think I HAVE been doing for the past 5 years or so with a 45% increase already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 It would go up a lot more if you re open our coal mines Baz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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