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The voting system doesn't help - PR just creates even more inertia & fudging of fundemental issues. Despite their cynism, political Parties are sensitive to public mood swings and you'll see some policy tweeking going on over the next few months by Labour & Tories, on the issue of immigration & the EU.

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Tories have been tweaking for months, it didn't work for them, they can't afford to do much more as they will be moving to the right and so away from the centre. You forget that he went to India in part to try to encourage Indian students to come back, who were chased away by not feeling wanted on the last immigration debate, rightly or wrongly they perseeved they were not wanted and did not come. Now he has the university's shouting in his ear about loss of income. We ended up scaring off the very people we wanted. He has very little room for manoeuvre. How to get people on the right satisfied such as yourself, and how to keep the middle in order to get elected. Not an easy job.

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If we can get a vote pushed through the commons to let two blokes get married in a church but we can't do the same to get us a vote to get us out of this bloody EU mess there really is something wrong. When the tories are more concerned with gay rights issues than the well being of the whole country then you know they have moved too far to the centre and that is the reason why in recent years the BNP (on immigration) and now UKIP (on Europe) have taken votes from traditional Tory voters because their party is neglecting them

 

We can't have every party as lilly livered liberal, toga wearing, car-hating cyclists.... because that leaves the rest of the normal people no one to vote for which is also why voter numbers are down year on year because they feel they have no one to vote for.... that also goes for the "traditional" Labour voters too.... the nationalise it and subsidise it crowd have watched their party turn into the Tories2.... it is all a shambles and we need to get back to proper left and right wing policies and parties

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You forget Baz, the Tory party say they are the party of business, and most of Business want to stay in the EU, Mr Cameron has a very hard job to do, how to appeal to people with your view on Europe, and how to keep business happy, not an easy job to do. What ever he does he will do slowly. He has to take the voters with him.

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Big business wants to stay in Europe Kije because they get to exploit the cheap european labour that flows from Poland and Rumania..... small and medium business are the ones that pay for all the EU nonsense in additional time spent keeping up with various directives such as having to give 6 months paid leave to blokes whose wives have kids and such like.... big business can absorb much of the EU meddling.... small businesses can't

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Businesses that export tend to be pro EU, and we get a lot of money invested into the UK, by companies such as Nissan because we are in the EU, The government know this, hence the government are walking a tight rope.. I am not trying to make political hay, just trying to tell it the way it is. You come out the EU you loose inward investment and markets, that's why no political party really wants to come out. They know what it would mean.

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The majority of the employment in this country comes from companies employing 10 or less people. I haven't met one of them employers that want us to stay in the EU because it does nothing for thier business except add more and more red tape to their day to day lives.... small business don't have HR departments and PR departments and Finance departments to fend off all this nonsense.... as soon as something comes in to law from the EU or indeed ou own government, it is the owners that have to sort it on top of thier day to day work..... it is a nightmare!!

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Not just a right - but a  left issue Kije; many working class folk are turning away from Labour and are anti-EU.  There's an irony in all this, Bliar took "NEW" Labour into the centre, abandoned Clause IV ( nationalise "the commanding heights of the economy"); then Gordie bales out the Banks, thus complying with Clause IV - you've just got to laugh!  

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Most small companies depend on bigger ones for their contracts or provide a service to the bigger companies Baz

 

so small companies should accept their lot then? Just get shafted by the big companies because they are the almighty?? Just like the big banks that were almighty?

 

You need to evaluate your position Kije....

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That's the way of the World Baz, Most small companies get shafted by big ones, late payments ect, and you will find small companies that supply air bus and Nissan will be pro EU, as their business depends on it. You do not speak for the majority of small business Baz,

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Which poses the question: in whose interest should politics operate?  The interests of "the people" or Corporate interests -  you won't find many "people" in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal or even Bulgaria who believe their interests are being looked after at the moment !

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Kije, Not saying I am speaking for all small business.... but the majority of voters no want out of the EU.... why else do you think the main parties won't give the in/out referendum or are stalling all the time?? because they know people will vote to get out.....

 

Personally, I wouldn't employ anyone from Eastern Europe and neither would I rent property to them... I wouldn't want to encourage them would I?? :lol:  :lol:

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Interesting now, that the Tories are talking about "benefits tourism" and scrapping the HR Act -  perhaps they should force a vote on these issues and let folk see whose for and against; or better still, perhaps the public could help them make up their minds with Swiss style referendums?!

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The "Big Business" argument is just a scare tactic by the pro-EU camp in my opinion. If the UK left the EU the EU countries would still need the UK to be a nett importer of their goods and the foreign owned companies in the UK would not shut up shop and move because they have already established themselves here and have an established work force. The upside is the £billions the UK would save from not having to pay rent to the EUSSR. A possible downside is Lt Kije moving to Belgium in disgust. I did say "possible" downside. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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How about you give me proof, for your side Asp, Nissan are one example, they have stated why they came, now les see proof, the big business would still open factories over here if we were outside. Saying something does not make it true, it should be interesting.

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New Business would not come as we would be outside the single market, and the ones that are here, Nissan ect would run down their operations.

 

You are the one that made the statement without proof. I never stated what business would or would not do so have no statement requiring proof, whereas you do. Nissan may well have said that they opened the factory because we are in the EU, but where is the statement that they would leave if we left the EU?

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Observer said

 

Well we've had the expected name calling and labelling etc from the luvvies; but the clear majority voted for either a covert or an overt anti-EU Party; which appears inline with public opinion generally.  The LibDums were only saved by an efficient local political infrastructure. :lol:

 

 

With regards to my own "labelling"....

 

One problem for UKIP is when people start to realise what a right wing ,public service cutting, misogynist, homophobic party they are. The more the spotlight is shone on this nasty little party , and what its belief system is, leaving aside the xenophobia, the better. It was the same as when that other nasty little organisation, the BNP *, were shown up in the light of media attention.



* I am sure UKIP is a refuge for many from the BNP - I know that they ask if anyone joining has been a member of BNP (or the EDL) but unless Nick Griffin gives then access to his membership lists ( which is somewhat unlikely) how would they know?

 

 

Right wing - pretty sure that Nigel Fartrage would not deny that.

 

 

Public Service Cutting - look at their policies to see that, keener on doing do than Osborne. Although they would spend billions on new roads - including through place like Culcheth linear park, while playing the (to use your word) luvvies' card of objecting to HS2.)

 

 

Misogynist - they were described as such by their own MEP (who also described Fartrage as "Stalinist" )

 

 

 

Homophobic - They sacked the leader of their Youth Organisation (The Fartrage Youth?) for daring to express a personal opinion in support of same-sex marriage.

 

..

Little - tricky one this. The local commandant has claimed to have over a hundred members in Warrington alone - multiply this by the number of constituencies and it would be a veritable army of support. He has also claimed to have 50 at branch meetings - an attendance figure I am sure the three main parties would be highly impressed by.

 

However, despite these claims, they have whinged that they lost Eastleigh because of the amount of volunteers the smallest of the mainstream parties were able to get to help - something UKIP with it's supposed legions of supporters were unable to do in their heartland -in the South-East. 

 

 

BNP Infiltration - a senior member of the English Democrats has announced he is to leave because of the number of BNP members joining (at least he is honest about it). I have no reason to believe that a similar exodus isn't occurring from the BNP (and those charmers in the English defence League) to UKIP. Despite UKIP'S  protestations they have no way of checking whether prospective members have been in those or other such organisations.

 

 

Nasty? - see highlighted  above.

 

 

Even the most Eurosceptic individual should recognise that, when it comes to UKIP, the cure is worse than the disease.

 

 

The good thing is that, in the context of a general election-, their greatest effect will be splitting the tory vote.

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