Public Transport

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

It was not sarcasm. I genuinely believe that this discussion is useful. We all have assumptions that motoring is relatively cheap compared to public transport. But rarely do we add all the true costs up to realise just how much it costs per mile.

 

From your costings it would appear that fuel forms the bulk of the costs per mile. However apart from your fuel your costs for the car seem surprisingly cheap.

 

Lets take your pence per mile and multiply them up for the 5,000 miles you do each year :

 

• 
   
  
• Insurance at 0.04p per mile amounts to 0.04 x 5,000 = 200p = £2.00
  
• Car Tax at .05p per mile amounts to 0.05 x 5,000 = 250p = £2.50
  
• Servicing at 0.02p per mile amounts to 0.02 x 5,000 = 100p = £1.00
  
• Tyres at 0.02p per mile amounts to 0.02 x 5,000 = 100p = £1.00
  
• Replacement parts at 0.08p per mile amounts to 0.08 x 5,000 = 400p = £4.00
  
• Depreciation at 1.1p per mile amopunts to 1.1 x 5,000 = 5,500p = £5.50
   
  

 

So the total amount you are spending on insurance, car tax, servicing, tyres, replacement parts and depreciation is just £16 per annum. No wonder you think that your car costs are next to nothing.

 

I suspect that you have wrongly calculated the cost per mile in £’s rather than pence. The clue is in your later explanation of your service costs when you said :-

 

eg : Full Service cost £99 / 5000 (miles) = 0.0198 pence per mile ... rounded up to 0.02

 

Well £99 divided by 5,000 amounts to £0.0198 or 2p rounded up rather than 0.02p

 

With regard to depreciation then assuming the £5,500 you say you have lost is 5 years then this would be over 25,000 miles and would equate to £0.22 per mile or 22p per mile.

 

Your likely costs per mile are probably :-

Fuel 13p

Insurance 4p

Car tax 5p

Servicing 2p

Tyres 2p

Parts 8p

Depreciation 22p

 

Total 56p per mile.

 

The interesting thing is not that you could get the costs wrong by such a huge amount, because being out by a factor of 100 on the calculations is quite easy, but that your instinct was that you did not think the cost was incorrect, even though it was less than a quarter of what the AA had suggested was an average.

 

So, getting back to that trip to Warrington Collegiate and back then based on 56p per mile then the 6 miles would be £3.36. Suddenly a Touch & Go for an under 19 at just £6.75 per week or £22.50 per month does seem to be remarkably good value.

 

It is possible to catch the 10:19 from Stockton Heath and change at the bus station to get in to Warrington Collegiate at 10:45. So that does seem relativly quick. There is also a choice as these buses do seem to run about every 15 mins.

 

It would therefore seem that buses do provide a reasonably cost effective way of getting around. Even without the Touch & Go, I suspect that bus travel is cheaper than car travel.

 

By all means let us make personal choices about how we travel and take account of the relative merits of each. But lets base those decisions on an accurate estimate of the relative costs and not use phrases such as "extortionate prices" when in reality they are quite reasonable and less than the cost of travelling by private car.

 

My best regards

 

Rod

[Dizzy]

What a complete and utter MUPPET and maybe you could stop posting confusing links in reply to me now Rod to save your time as well as mine DURH !!!!!!

[Bazj]

I managed to get insurance for my 3.0 diesel down to 470 this year from swiftcover but I do about 20,000 to 25,000 miles a year and that icludes business mileage too. (I am a real planet killer Rod!!) which works out between about 0.023 pence a mile to 0.18 pence a mile... bargain. When I go on a train I like to go 1st class so if I can't get a deal I will take the car. I also drive to the South of France every year so that bumps the mileage up, but then again diesel is cheaper over there anyway

 

Diesel costs me currently £1.30 a gallon (Less 50% of the VAT) but even at full price it costs about 0.034 pence a mile at an average of 35 - 40 miles to the gallon

[fugtifino]

We all have assumptions that motoring is relatively cheap compared to public transport. But rarely do we add all the true costs up to realise just how much it costs per mile.

 

Rod:

 

I think I'm one of the more sympathetic-to-your-cause posters on here that you're likely to get.

 

So, please look at post #66 (again?)

 

I've no stats on this to link to, but there are other things to consider than those that are purely financial or environmental.

 

Some areas of Warrington - notably Woolston Grange Employment Area - are not served by public transport.

 

Many companies there work on shifts.

 

Many companies there use agencies for their supply of workers.

 

Many agencies don't give you a second chance if you're late for your shift.

 

How does losing your job factor in to your equation?

 

And I know your answer is to go to work on a bike.

 

Oh, and despite protestations from other posters, I do have a sense of humour, though I have wisely omitted this from my CV.

 

Have you?

[rodk]

What a complete and utter MUPPET and maybe you could stop posting confusing links in reply to me now Rod to save your time as well as mine DURH !!!!!!

 

Dizzy

 

Is that an acceptance that your costs per mile are about 56p per mile?

 

Rod

[rodk]

I managed to get insurance for my 3.0 diesel down to 470 this year from swiftcover but I do about 20,000 to 25,000 miles a year and that icludes business mileage too. (I am a real planet killer Rod!!) which works out between about 0.023 pence a mile to 0.18 pence a mile... bargain. When I go on a train I like to go 1st class so if I can't get a deal I will take the car. I also drive to the South of France every year so that bumps the mileage up, but then again diesel is cheaper over there anyway

 

Diesel costs me currently £1.30 a gallon (Less 50% of the VAT) but even at full price it costs about 0.034 pence a mile at an average of 35 - 40 miles to the gallon

 

Baz

 

I will treat this as a wind up. Nice try!

 

Rod

[rodk]

fugtifino

 

I agree that there are other considerations about public transport when used for getting to work. But the whole objective of the LSFT fund is to provide additional options for getting across the North of Warrington and connect up residential and business areas by public transport and better quality walking and cycling facilities.

 

Surely that is a step in the right direction. Public transport will never be right for everyone, but by focussing on increased services and better routes then it can be both convenient and affordable in ways that give those that can use it alternatives to reaching for an ignition key.

 

And yes, I still have a sense of humour.

 

Regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

Baz

 

I will treat this as a wind up. Nice try!

 

Rod

 

Only if I can mention the old classic cars as well Rod which don't cost me anything to tax; can be insured for £99.00 fully comp per year and are a lot nicer to look at than some 50 year old bloke in Lycra shorts!

[rodk]

So Baz!

 

Insurance at £470 for 22,500 miles equates to 2.08p per mile and your fuel is coming out at £1.30 a gallon. Shouldn't that be £1.30 a litre and hence the cost at 37.5 miles per gallon comes to 16p a mile.

 

I see you still have your fixation on blokes in lycra!

 

Best regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

True enough.... I got my gallons and litres mixed up.... but I don't really pay for it anyway!! but 18p a mile is not too bad I don't think.....

 

The car is paid for so no ongoing costs there and things like tyres and stuff I always source from Germany which are a fraction of the price. Servicing is a set £30.00 a month, so other than my mates rates MOT; still less that 55p a mile!

 

I do have a lycra fixation, but not fat old men on bikes I'm afraid!!

[rodk]

Baz

 

Not only did you mix up your litres and gallons, but you also forgot that there were 100 pennies in a pound.

 

Frankly I don't have much confidence in your ability to convert from Euros into Sterling.

 

It wouldn't be my thoughts but I note that your signature includes a comment about "never confronted with this kind of stupidity in so much detail".

 

Perhaps its time to revise that!

 

Regards

 

 

Rod

[Dizzy]

Ouch Hey that's two of us now Baz... my stupidity is spreading fast

[Dizzy]

Dizzy

 

Is that an acceptance that your costs per mile are about 56p per mile?

 

Rod

 

I thought that referring to myself as a ‘muppet’ etc sort of answered that already Rod but as you seem to want me to admit to getting things wrong again then I’m more than happy to …

 

…… Yes Rod it appears that due to my own stupidity regarding the decimal place I was completely wrong with my costings and you were right… well you were nearly right but I’m still not convinced you are 100% right with your costs and they way you do them or your analysis.

 

IN BRIEF (yeah like it's likely to be brief)

 

Based on my new found understanding of the decimal place ha ha I've just done my personal costs on a daily rate as that's less complicated for my little brain but have shown the pence per mile costs along side now that I’m starting to ‘understand’ maths a little better.

 

So is this right?….

 

Seems to me that if my car was just sitting outside my house every day NOT being used until really necessary whilst I walked, cycled or got the bus (at a cost) everywhere else then in the past year (including my new door part etc) it would have cost me around -

 

66p a day in car tax - or 5p per mile

55p a day in insurance - or 4p per mile

27p a day in servicing - or 2p per mile

27p a day in Tyres – or 2p per mile (had I actually got those costs right as the price I used was for my other half’s tyre and mine are cheaper and I got confused… not to worry I’ll leave it the same)

1.09p a day for my door part - or 8p per mile

1.50 a day depreciation – or 11p per mile (not 22p per mile as you presumed as my depreciation is over 10 years not 5 years.)

 

So is that a Rod TOTAL of £4.34 a day to just sit there regardless of whether I use it or not based on all those factors or 32p per mile (based on the higher costs of doing 5000 miles or less if I didn’t actually do any miles and put no petrol in) ? Confusing eh ?

 

So taking that into account and the fact that even if I did decide to take your advice and use my legs, bus or a bike instead for a lot of travel I would STILL have to pay for insurance and tax on my car , as like you, I could not completely do without one so maybe these costs should NOT be included as we have no choice but to pay them to be road legal. (There is also the cost of the MOT which Baz mentioned and you/I omitted but I’m not adding that as daily as it’s only 0.07p per day and 0.0054p per mile it’s so not worth adding as its only a fraction of a penny providing I've got my decimals right of course )

 

So Tax and Insurance alone without any petrol costs or other costs would cost me £1.21 per day

 

……but I suppose I’d still need a service as I doubt having a car just sitting there is good for it so that brings it upto £1.48 per day if I wasn’t even using it.

 

From my first calculation of £4.34 a day I could in all reality knock the 27p per day for servicing and the £1.09 per day for my unexpected door part and also the £1.50 per day for depreciation off bringing it down to £1.48 per day anyway as I didn’t pay for the service or part anyway and I don’t care about depreciation as it was not a new car new when I bought it and so my loss is not as great as if it had been. I have gained far more in convenience and long term use than I would have gained had I spent the same amount on a few foreign holidays or left it in the bank gathering dust.

Most things you buy depreciate anyway so it’s just a fact or life.

 

So surely all I need to worry about is how much petrol I buy and use and compare that to the costs of using a bus for the same journeys for a true comparrison and simply ignore most of the other costs that I’d still have to pay anyway. ?

 

I suppose if I could get over the massive inconvenience of getting rid of my car and NOT having one at all and if I could cope using endless busses plus the extra time for my journeys everywhere then obviously it would save some money then maybe a Town Saver Card at £45 a month just for me would sound like a good idea. But realistically I can’t see it working somehow.

 

I might one day consider it if you can answer this Rod.

 

Friday I left home at 12.45am and dropped my son of at college. From there I went to tesco and did some food shopping as I passed it on the way back anyway.

 

From Tesco I them went down past the hospital to the pink eye roundabout and into B&Q and to another nearby business. From there I went up Sankey Way to Penketh and then came back again to near the Pink Eye Roundabout. I then had to go back up Sankey Way a second time before travelling directly back to Stockton Heath.

 

With a saver card costing me £45 a month all that would have been free on the bus but any idea how long it would all have taken me ?

[Bazj]

Ouch Hey that's two of us now Baz... my stupidity is spreading fast

 

Its OK.... I know where he works so I'll go and let his tyres down!!

[asperity]

Its OK.... I know where he works so I'll go and let his tyres down!!

 

 

Shouldn't take much time and effort :wink:

[Bazj]

Shouldn't take much time and effort :wink:

 

I know!!

 

Rod is a one trick pony when it comes to comes to these places and prefers to try and baffle everyone with his nonsense that buses are cheaper and more convenient than cars and is quite happy to have a little dig at peoples errors, but refuses to take me up on my assumptions that the 20mph trials in Warrington were all a fix. Also that they lied and fudged the figures about the costs by including main roads in the trials but left them out of the actual rollouts and thus increasing the costs for 4 road signs at every junction with a main road such as Long lane....

 

And he has a go at my maths!!!

[RingoDave]

Just to throw another spanner into the works; there are many, like myself, who work night shifts. As the buses near me stop running early evening, it would cost me more than any of the quoted figures as I would have to give up my job. I work in Haydock, Ashton, Newton, Billinge and Cinnamon Brow, depending on where I am needed.

I would love to use buses, but this is blatantly impossible.

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

You said :-

 

(There is also the cost of the MOT which Baz mentioned and you/I omitted but I’m not adding that as daily as it’s only 0.07p per day and 0.0054p per mile it’s so not worth adding as its only a fraction of a penny providing I've got my decimals right of course

 

You still don't get it do you. let's try again.

 

Let's say that an MOT costs £25

 

You do 5,000 miles a year.

 

To get the costs of the MOT in pounds per mile then divide £25 by 5,000 :-

 

£25 / 5000 = £.005 per mile

 

To convert £ 0.005 to pennies then multiply by 100 because there are 100 pennies in a pound.

 

£0.005 per mile x 100 = 0.5 p per mile

 

Hence the cost of your MOT is 0.5p per mile and not 0.0054p per mile.

 

Looking at your cost per day it is also out by a factor of 100.

 

 

Your question about how you get to Tesco and B & Q are both framed around you travelling across to Winwick Road. If you do want to know what alternatives you have to going to these places by private car then it all depends on what you are needing. Clearly if you travelled to Tesco for a newspaper and B & Q for perhaps a calculator, then you could have got both of these in Stockton Heath or even closer.

 

Best regards

 

 

Rod

[rodk]

I know!!

 

Rod is a one trick pony when it comes to comes to these places and prefers to try and baffle everyone with his nonsense that buses are cheaper and more convenient than cars and is quite happy to have a little dig at peoples errors, but refuses to take me up on my assumptions that the 20mph trials in Warrington were all a fix. Also that they lied and fudged the figures about the costs by including main roads in the trials but left them out of the actual rollouts and thus increasing the costs for 4 road signs at every junction with a main road such as Long lane....

 

And he has a go at my maths!!!

 

Baz

 

It wasn't a little dig, it was pointing out completely incompetent maths.

 

I certainly haven't said buses were more convenient than anything. What I did correct was the completely false assumptions made by yourself and Dizzy about the cost of motoring compared to public transport.

 

You say that I haven't taken you up in your "assumptions" that the pilots "were all a fix". Well they are just assumptions and you have offered no evidence at all.

 

So who exactly are you accusing of lieing about the cost, and what is the evidence?

 

Its just an assumption made by yourself.

 

Regards

 

Rod

[rodk]

Just to throw another spanner into the works; there are many, like myself, who work night shifts. As the buses near me stop running early evening, it would cost me more than any of the quoted figures as I would have to give up my job. I work in Haydock, Ashton, Newton, Billinge and Cinnamon Brow, depending on where I am needed.

I would love to use buses, but this is blatantly impossible.

 

I agree. Its all about people being able to make a choice and for some journies providing that choice is easy and for others almost impossible.

 

Regards

 

 

Rod

[Cleopatra]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...... Oooops! Nearly fell of my bike! :lol:

[Dizzy]

Dizzy

 

You still don't get it do you. let's try again......

 

OOPS I am not using this damn calculator any more

 

So 7p a day (normal MOT price £27) yeah I did it....but thankfully I didn't pay for my MOT anyway so it's not costing me anything per day or per mile

From now on I will just use my car and not worry about how much a mile it might be costing me as life's too short to worry about little things and I'm starting to feel sorry for everyone on here now

 

 

Your question about how you get to Tesco and B & Q are both framed around you travelling across to Winwick Road. If you do want to know what alternatives you have to going to these places by private car then it all depends on what you are needing. Clearly if you travelled to Tesco for a newspaper and B & Q for perhaps a calculator, then you could have got both of these in Stockton Heath or even closer.

 

Strange reply and why on earth would I go to B&Q for a calcualtor as I clearly can't use the damn things anyway.

 

If you read back my my question wasn't how to get to Tesco and B&Q at all. It was how long would it take me by bus to do the whole journey which also included 2 trips to Penketh and back remember

 

Also you didn't comment on the fact I said that tax/insurance/mot would all have to be paid regardelss of whether I/we used our cars so to be fair they shouldn't be included when you are comparing bus fare costs to pence per mile car travel cost.

 

Have a nice day Rod, the sun is shining and I'm off out for a walk now (spoilt only by the dust and pollen)

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

Yes, of course its all free. Even the fuel in the tank is already bought, so really doesn't cost you anything. I think you will find that when depreciation on a car starts to reduce this is balanced by an increase in maintenance and repair bills.

 

You choosing destinations at random and then asking how to get there by bus is irrelevent. Anyone who is smart about their travel and public transport use would say there is no benefit of going right the way across town to shop in a particular store when you have plenty of choice locally.

 

I trust that you enjoyed your walk today.

 

Best regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

 

You say that I haven't taken you up in your "assumptions" that the pilots "were all a fix". Well they are just assumptions and you have offered no evidence at all.

 

So who exactly are you accusing of lieing about the cost, and what is the evidence?

 

Its just an assumption made by yourself.

 

 

In trials in other towns. did they include major roads that were then omitted from the final rollout? If so, this would reduce the costs given to whatever bodies were monitoring the trials.

 

What happened in Warrington was that Park Road and Long Lane were included in the initial trials. Costs were then given which basically included one set of 20mph signs at each end of Long Lane and Park Road as the rest of the side roads were included within the boundaries of the 20mph limits and did not need signs other than at where they met up with a 30mph road.

 

These costs were publicised I believe and the likes of your campaign then told us what good value for money it all was.....

 

When the time came for the 20mph limits to be made permanent, Park Road and Long Lane were taken out of the rollout. This then meant that EVERY side road which was in the rollout had to have two 20mph and two 30mph signs at each junction (Either with Park Road/Long Lane or whatever other roads they met up with)

 

Not an assumption but fact as far as I can see....

[asperity]

I don't have a car any more and use public transport most of the time when I'm home. As regards convenience can I give as an example my experience today? I left the Anvil in Wigan (next to the bus station for anyone not familiar with this very pleasant watering hole) at 3:20 this afternoon and arrived home at 4:00 at a cost of £4.50. I couldn't have done this by driving a car for the obvious reason that I had been in the Anvil for a "while" The cost by car would have been more as I would have had to pay for parking in Wigan with the additional downside that I would have had to drink J2Os in the pub.

 

Having said that I am firmly on the side of the car, but believe public transport is very poor generally in this country. As with everything else we are being robbed blind. :evil: