Are the old paying enough?

[Peter T]

Each generation is different, and evolves as the world changes. Why rob the old who have worked hard for their retirement, just in case todays workers "might" be less solvent?

 

Very few things in life are fair. Life is what you make it.

If you want someone to blame, try the politicians, the union bosses and your beloved Europe.

 

Of course, you could always cut out the holidays to Goa, and save for your retirement.

 

We are where we are. Stop being a green eyed monster.

[Lt Kije]

Green eyed Monster??

 

I new when I posted it,it would be emotive, but I did back up my statement with fact, PFIs, house prices going up ect, final salary pension schemes closing ageing population. It is obvious to everyone that the situation can not go on as it is, what I was after with this thread was how to spread the burden more evenly , what I got was I am all right jack, leave my pile alone, to be honest I expected that. But I did expect some sympathy for the plight of the young. Obs was the only one that came close. If you want green eyed monsters I suggest you look else where, all some people will need is a mirror. As for gaining ground that was not my intension. For those that read papers their has been articles in them all week, I posted a link to one. It is not hard to see why the polititions left pensions alone for so long, actually to long!! When you see the postings of the few people that posted on the thread.

[asperity]

I'm afraid your view that its not worth paying into a pension fund is very short term. A pension fund will only pay out a reasonable amount if it is allowed time to grow. In other words if you start paying in when you start work then in the next 40 to 50 years it will have time to grow. Granted, at the moment pension funds are stagnant because of the economic circumstances, but who is to say what is going to happen in the future. And, as they say, you have to be in it to win it!

 

State pensions are another matter, and I agree the situation cannot continue as it is with a growing need requiring funding from a shrinking number of people. However I don't agree that this should be done by penalising the people who have already paid, and still are paying, into the pot. :wink:

[observer]

Any pension scheme is only attractive to the provider when folk don't live too long in retirement. Even the original State scheme based on retirement at 65, was conceived in a period when most folk were dying at 70. Clearly Government have looked at the stats, and finally decided to up the retirement age, which presumably will keep increasing IF average longevity keeps increasing.

[algy]

Green eyed Monster??

 

I new when I posted it,it would be emotive, but I did back up my statement with fact, PFIs, house prices going up ect, final salary pension schemes closing ageing population. It is obvious to everyone that the situation can not go on as it is, what I was after with this thread was how to spread the burden more evenly , what I got was I am all right jack, leave my pile alone, to be honest I expected that. But I did expect some sympathy for the plight of the young. Obs was the only one that came close. If you want green eyed monsters I suggest you look else where, all some people will need is a mirror. As for gaining ground that was not my intension. For those that read papers their has been articles in them all week, I posted a link to one. It is not hard to see why the polititions left pensions alone for so long, actually to long!! When you see the postings of the few people that posted on the thread.

 

Sorry Lt, I don't agree that you only found 'I'm all right Jack's' you got quite a number of older people not wishing to lose what they have spent a lifetime of working hard for, you earlier mentioned that your father was probably a similar age to myself (71) have you solicited his opinion, if so I should be very interested to hear it.

[Sheila_P]

Green eyed Monster??

 

I new when I posted it,it would be emotive, but I did back up my statement with fact, PFIs, house prices going up ect, final salary pension schemes closing ageing population. It is obvious to everyone that the situation can not go on as it is, what I was after with this thread was how to spread the burden more evenly , what I got was I am all right jack, leave my pile alone, to be honest I expected that. But I did expect some sympathy for the plight of the young. Obs was the only one that came close. If you want green eyed monsters I suggest you look else where, all some people will need is a mirror. As for gaining ground that was not my intension. For those that read papers their has been articles in them all week, I posted a link to one. It is not hard to see why the polititions left pensions alone for so long, actually to long!! When you see the postings of the few people that posted on the thread.

 

Again, you generalise.

 

What exactly was in my post which suggested I had no sympathy for younger people?

 

I, and the people I grew up with are not a part of the 'I'm alright Jack' generation.

 

We were raised to be respectful of people and their feelings, help anyone in need, if we were able to and work hard.

 

It was considered shameful to be unemployed, so people didn't consider some jobs to be beneath them.

 

We were encouraged to present ourselves properly, going out dressed as smartly as we could manage.

 

There are many things wrong with this country, the benefits culture being one of them. How can the working population continue to support the people who don't even try to find work, preferring to live off the state and bringing up their children the same way? I would suggest that they are a burden, not older people.

 

How about immigration? We have people moving here, who are given houses and benefits without having contributed to our society. That can't be right.

 

It's not the fault of the immigrants, they want a better life. It's the law that is wrong and it needs changing.

 

I fully agree that we have an aging population and that there will be some strain, which in itself is unfair. What you fail to take into account is the contributions that we older people have made over the years and will continue to make.

 

What happens when older people pass away? Their estates normally pass on to the younger generations.

 

I hope that the two suggestions I have made will go some way to balancing your argument.

[Lt Kije]

Algy,

 

My Father is 79 my Mother is 73, they separated many years ago, My Mother is a retired lecturer, and she is on a final salary scheme. My Father is a retired engineer, no pension. But he played the property game, when it was good to play and kept trading up, his pension is his house. I speak to my Mother regally, I would say she is sympathetic to the young and thinks things should have been changed years ago, she could not now take a cut in her pension, but if it had been sorted years ago when the polititions saw it coming she could have planned to get less. I have not spoken to my father for over 20 years since he left and remarried,

 

Ps have you read the article I posted

[algy]

Algy,

 

My Father is 79 my Mother is 73, they separated many years ago, My Mother is a retired lecturer, and she is on a final salary scheme. My Father is a retired engineer, no pension. But he played the property game, when it was good to play and kept trading up, his pension is his house. I speak to my Mother regally, I would say she is sympathetic to the young and thinks things should have been changed years ago, she could not now take a cut in her pension, but if it had been sorted years ago when the polititions saw it coming she could have planned to get less. I have not spoken to my father for over 20 years since he left and remarried,

 

Ps have you read the article I posted

I understand where your mother is coming from and with the benefit of hind sight, when we were younger, then I'm sure we would have accepted financial restraint (perhaps not with open arms) to put the country to right, however the older generation today broadly speaking do not have any earning potential, consequently a reduction in benefits and pensions would only have the effect of lessening their standards of living. In my mind industry in the UK committed commercial suicide when it discontinued trade apprenticeship schemes and attempted to replace them by introducing multi skill practices to existing tradesmen who were so entrenched in single stream trades and most found it either too difficult a concept to grasp or just weren't interested, now, what industry we have remaining in this country are finding it almost impossible to find suitable skilled tradesman, as the saying goes "You shall reap what you sew".

[Lt Kije]

On that algy, We are in complete agreement. I remember another thread where asperity was saying how he got where he did, left school at 15 and worked very hard to get where he has got, I have no doubt that he did the merchant navy do not suffer fools. But he did say the option is now shut for young people, as you would need a degree to get where he has got, as we have said on other threads pushing all the young todo degrees is just stupid, some people are clearly not suited to do them it devalues degrees because lots of people have them. And as asperity proved you should be able to get anywhere with hard work and commitment. My daughter is hoping to become a nurse, you need a degree to become one now. I might be wrong but we have had a brilliant nursing service for years without them needing a degree, all this is going todo is to shut the door on people who otherwise could have got a career and been good nurses. Their was just no need for it. This push for degrees is stupid because the people who are I'll suited to do them go and to media degrees which are a complete waste of money, and just ensures they start their career if they can get one in dept. Apprenticships would have been far more suitable and they would have had on the job training and a career.

 

Ps don't tell Asp I was complimenting him, it would only go to his head

[algy]

On that algy, We are in complete agreement. I remember another thread where asperity was saying how he got where he did, left school at 15 and worked very hard to get where he has got, I have no doubt that he did the merchant navy do not suffer fools. But he did say the option is now shut for young people, as you would need a degree to get where he has got, as we have said on other threads pushing all the young todo degrees is just stupid, some people are clearly not suited to do them it devalues degrees because lots of people have them. And as asperity proved you should be able to get anywhere with hard work and commitment. My daughter is hoping to become a nurse, you need a degree to become one now. I might be wrong but we have had a brilliant nursing service for years without them needing a degree, all this is going todo is to shut the door on people who otherwise could have got a career and been good nurses. Their was just no need for it. This push for degrees is stupid because the people who are I'll suited to do them go and to media degrees which are a complete waste of money, and just ensures they start their career if they can get one in dept. Apprenticships would have been far more suitable and they would have had on the job training and a career.

 

Ps don't tell Asp I was complimenting him, it would only go to his head

 

Correct Lt, I too was fortunate to work at a time where if you demonstrated the aptitude to manage your work skills and have the ability to accept and carry responsibility, you were given the chance to prove yourself and promotion was always an option. The fact that some (not all I hasten to add) young people have an ability to read and store sufficient data to pass an examination does not necessarily mean that they also master the art of common sense, and as we are now seeing young graduates are leaving universities with degrees only to find themselves redundant before they have had a chance to prove themselves, this is something that the government needs to address or as we have said on here previously, we shall have such a massive amount of educated, unemployed, frustrated and angry youths on our streets that could result in total and uncontrollable anarchy. God Forbid!.

I think I have burned myself out on this subject.

[asperity]

Lt Kije I completely agree with you on the subject of apprenticeships. The government has done the young no favours by promoting degrees as the way to go. :wink:

[Lt Kije]

I agree Algy, all sides have got their point across, I think all sides have a better understanding of the troubles of the other, to carry on would be pointless, In hindsight I wish I had gone with another title to the thread, it was a little provocative, Thank you for your input

[Cleopatra]

Case closed?

[wolfie]

The fact that some (not all I hasten to add) young people have an ability to read and store sufficient data to pass an examination does not necessarily mean that they also master the art of common sense, and as we are now seeing young graduates are leaving universities with degrees only to find themselves redundant before they have had a chance to prove themselves,.

 

That's because you don't need to pass an exam to get a degree.

You may need a degree before you can go into nursing or teaching etc etc but that's simply because the qualification level has increased but not necessarily the standard of student.

[algy]

That's because you don't need to pass an exam to get a degree.

You may need a degree before you can go into nursing or teaching etc etc but that's simply because the qualification level has increased but not necessarily the standard of student.

 

Wolfie, Read on!

 

Degree classification

 

The biggest distinction made is whether the degree is awarded with or without honours. Nowadays, nearly all candidates sit for honours; an ordinary (or pass) degree (i.e. a degree without honours) is usually awarded to a candidate who marginally fails the honours examination, or significant parts of it. A candidate who fails badly is usually allowed to retake the examination for a pass degree, as most universities prohibit such a student from receiving honours.

 

Most universities award a class of degree based on the average mark of the assessed work a candidate has completed. Below is a list of the possible classifications with common abbreviations. rough percentages for each class are also listed, these percentages vary between subjects and universities. Honours degrees are in bold:

 

First-Class Honours (First or 1st) (70% and above) (OPEN UNIVERSITY 85%+)

Upper Second-Class Honours (2:1, 2.i) (60-70%) (OPEN UNIVERSITY 70-85%)

Lower Second-Class Honours (2:2, 2.ii) (50-60%) (OPEN UNIVERSITY 55-70%)

Third-Class Honours (Third or 3rd) (40-50%) (OPEN UNIVERSITY 40-55%)

Ordinary degree (pass) (OPEN UNIVERSITY AWARDED AT 300 CATS POINTS)

Fail (no degree is awarded)

Unclassified (some degrees aren't classified eg medicine or masters degree)

 

The system does allow for a small amount of discretion and candidates may be elevated up to the next degree class if their average mark is close and they have submitted many pieces of work worthy of the higher class. However, they may be demoted a class if they fail to pass all parts of the course even if they have a high average.

 

There are also variations between universities (especially in Scotland, where honours are usually reserved only for courses lasting four years or more) and requirements other than the correct average are often needed to be awarded honours.

 

When a candidate is awarded a degree with honours, they can suffix (Hons) to their class of degree, such as BA (Hons) or BSc (Hons).

 

At University of Oxford and University of Cambridge, honours classes apply to examinations, not to degrees. Thus, in Cambridge, where undergraduates are examined at the end of each part of the tripos, a student may receive different classifications for different parts. The classification of the final part is usually considered the classification of the degree. At Oxford, the Final Honour School results are generally applied to the degree.

 

In some universities, candidates who successfully complete one or more years of degree-level study, but choose not to or fail to complete a full degree, may be awarded a lower qualification - a Certificate of Higher Education or Higher National Certificate for one year, or a Diploma of Higher Education or Higher National Diploma for two years.

First Class Honours

 

In most universities, First-Class Honours is the highest honours which can be achieved, with about 10% of candidates achieving a First nationally.

 

A minority of universities award First-Class Honours with Distinction, informally known as a starred first.

 

A Double First can refer to first class honours in two separate subjects, e.g. Classics and Mathematics, or alternatively to first class honours in the same subject in subsequent examinations, e.g. subsequent Parts of the tripos at the University of Cambridge

[wolfie]

Wolfie, Read on!

Most universities award a class of degree based on the average mark of the assessed work a candidate has completed

 

 

My point exactly alg.

[algy]

My point exactly alg.

You are still required to pass examinations on the path to your degree!

[wolfie]

No you don't

 

or should I say No you aren't.

[algy]

No you don't

 

or should I say No you aren't.

What ever you say mate, I'm not into playing trivia today.

[wolfie]

It,s not trivia alg.

 

A nursing Foundation degree is merely 50per cent work based training and 50 per cent of continually assessed study.

 

If a Nursery nurse wishes to become a Teaching assisstant then it's the same.

 

Police officers are now required to have a degree, it consists of work based training and University study (assessed).

 

The end result for all is a presentation of their degree certificate at Chester Cathedral in cap and gown.

[observer]

In a world of bulls**t, the more bull the better!

[wolfie]

Quite right obs, in fact the work that is assessed can be done by anyone and nobody would know.

[Lt Kije]

I can only speak for nursing, you need 3 A levels to get on the course, it is indeed continual assement but their are exams after each module, you have to complete 2000 hours in the class room and 2000 hours on wards ect, their will be alot of good people out there who will not meet the 3 a level criteria, who previously would have made good nurses.

[Davy51]

Never heard such a load of bull in my life as the original post. The Third Reich had a perfectly brilliant way of ridding itself of the elderly,infirm & disabled & every other enemy of the state.Maybe Kije should become an MP for the euthanasia party.

I have recently retired early & i can't claim a penny off the state after 45 years of work because i was stupid enough to buy my own house & also to pay into a private pension.I suggest, if you seriously want financial security for the future ,that you start throwing kids out every 12 months & get yourself locked into the social security rollercoaster...your worries will then be over !

[wolfie]

There are currently no national minimum academic entry requirements for entry into nursing courses.
As a consequence, each higher education institution (HEI) running courses sets its own criteria. 
All applicants must be able to demonstrate evidence of literacy and numeracy. 

 

New entrants to the nursing profession from September 2013 will have to study a degree and diploma 
courses will be phased out by early 2013. This means that some universities will only offer the new 
degree programme from September 2012, where others will continue to offer the diploma and current 
degree programmes throughout 2012. By September 2013, all nursing programmes will be degree-only.

 

Assesments can be from exams, essays, practical lab work and clinical skills- 
so if you feel pressured under exams- thats not your only form of assesment.