Both of the Warrington MP's Voted Against a Referendum

[Bazj]

They call it a treaty but the wording is virtually identical and it is a constitution in all but name

 

Nice to see our local Labour girls are toeing the party line and refusing to give us; the voters what they promised we could have in the last election manifesto....

 

Simple truth is after Denmark and the others voted against it, Brussels panicked because their master plan was being exposed so they altered a few paragraphs, removed the word constitution and forced it upon us all instead. A stark reminder of what is to come if this gets passed into law....

 

[ 12.03.2008, 22:01: Message edited by: BazJ ]

[asperity]

You are absolutely correct BazJ. We are being railroaded into a bureaucratic nightmare. Ireland is having a referendum but you can be sure that if the vote goes against they will have another one until they get the answer they want. And, apparently, in the referendum the question on the treaty is being coupled with one about whether they want to keep their neutrality so if they vote no..........

[harry hayes]

I agree with the posting. I like to think I am one of the most reasonable people about, but I read an article which says we pay out 4 billion a year, each year, to Europe, more than we receive. Also a few millions to children in Poland whose fathers are over here.

Another four billion for troops in Afghanistan and Iraq which, if everyone were as big a mug as we are, would come down quite drastically.(hardly Europe,s fault, I accept, but we have our own troubles at home)

I voted for EFTA all those years ago, and in my humble opinion that is how it should have remained, unless democracy was given a further chance.

 

Happy days

[observer]

Did anyone really expect our two Bliar's Babes NOT to toe the Party Line?

[Peter T]

As long as people stay in their little bubbles, the MP's and Cllrs can do what they like because no-one will complain and vote them out.

[Paul Kennedy]

Harry

 

Don't think there was ever a vote on EFTA was there, the UK was a founding member in 1960 and left in 1973 when we joined the EEC...there was a referendum in the UK on the EEC in June 1975...as I recall it was the first time I voted...and I think I voted yes

 

PS Think there are only 4 countries left in EFTA now

[harry hayes]

Probably right Paul. My recollection is that we were voting as trading partners . long time ago.

 

Happy days

[Bazj]

As someone said on the radio today, we have countless thousands of trucks sat blocking our motorways and costing our police time to deal with it all because the damn French ferry crews are on strike. Do we get compensation for all the orders our companies cannot fulfil due to the French?

 

Doubt it somehow.

 

We are the financial backbone of an organisation that takes in more hard luck cases than the Salvation Army; Poland, Greece et al must have been rubbing their hands with glee when they were accepted. They all have a net gain in Europe of billions while us daft Brits continue to fund it all.

 

If Austrailia and China and the rest of the world can trade with Europe without being part of it.... why can't we? We would have a 4 billion financial bonus to start with anyway!

[observer]

It would help if the main parties provided us with a clear choice on the EU at the next election, but, as they are all wedded to the idea, we have no choice - unless we start voting for UKIP or BNP!

[Peter T]

Have UKIP got their act together? Didn't they have a bit of a falling out amongst themselves a while back?

[observer]

Think Nigel has things sorted out now, one of the few who is clear and concise.

[Paul Kennedy]

Do you really think so. :confused:

[Peter T]

Is that a worried look Paul?

[Paul Kennedy]

No, I just think Nigel Farage of UKIP is glib and is only too happy to be on the EU gravytrain....it beats a proper job. Actually I don't have a problem with the concept of the EEC...rather than EU indeed in 1975 I voted for it, just with large overbearing and bureaucratic government which is what it is and indeed what our local and national governments are. Government has a cost...a very high and increasing cost, and in a competitive global economy it is a cost that we can no longer bare. WBC for example has borrowings and deficits of about ?200 million and rising...how is it ever going to be paid off and what right do we have to saddle our children and their children......with those debts.

 

[ 14.03.2008, 09:03: Message edited by: Paul Kennedy ]

[observer]

Certainly not "glib"; clear, concise and to the point of any arguement, with some cold stark facts as ammunition - none of the useual lies and waffle. As for being an MEP, don't think he'd gather much ammunition if he was on the outside looking in?

[Peter T]

What people voted for and what we have now is as different as chalk and cheese.

[Paul Kennedy]

Correct...and indeed not what most people want at all. In terms of business, with the exception of certain rules and regulations i.e. I can't sell certain UK produced chemicals in the EU but I can elsewhere in the world

[observer]

It was obvious from the very beginning, before the last referendum, that a relatively rich and prosperous UK was entering an arrangement, where it would be subsidising most of the other members, thus would be a net loser financially.

[Lt Kije]

How about most of our exports go to other EU countries Observer,and we could do more if we had the Euro instead of the pound. Have you ever thoughrt about changing your name to Daily Mail

[asperity]

If we left the EU that wouldn't mean we would have to stop trading with them. As it stands the EU needs us more than we need them as we still trade massively with the rest of the world. As for the EURO, it's more than a currency as it would lock us into a system that we couldn't adjust to suit our own finances i.e. exactly the situation we were in before Black Wednesday (which had the enthusiastic backing of the Labour and Lib-Dem parties before it all went pear shaped). It was because we left the "snake" that our economy lifted off and the interest rates dropped giving Gordon the start as Chancellor that he could only have dreamed about. And of course he went and made a hash of it by spending every penny and more. Prudent? Don't make me laugh.

[Paul Kennedy]

The following from Global Vision...who are:

 

an independent not-for-profit organisation dedicated to creating an open, informed discussion on Britain's future development in a globalising world economy and the implications for our relationships with Europe. Its analysis and research is supported by a group of distinguished economists who serve on its Economic Advisory Panel. Its aims are also supported by a cross section of senior business leaders who believe these issues now need to be addressed. Global Vision does not have links with or support any political party.

 

and they say:

 

The latest UN projections of working-age population indicate that UK exporters will have to look to countries outside Europe for growth.

 

Continental EU will be a shrinking market.

 

In stark contrast, most countries of the Commonwealth will experience strong growth over the next 43 years.

 

North America will be another fast-growing region.

 

 

In the period 1999-2005 inclusive, UK exports to countries outside the EU grew on average 44 per cent faster than exports to other EU member states.

 

On present trends, the proportion of UK exports going to the EU will shrink from around 40 per cent in 2005 to around 34 per cent by 2015. At that point, around two-thirds of all British exports will be going outside the EU.

[Paul Kennedy]

Originally posted by Lt Kije:

and we could do more if we had the Euro instead of the pound.

Highly unlikely...most world trade is conducted in $US...oil being the biggest. Other countries will trade with us because we offer a product that is good value for money/cheaper than elsewhere not because it is sold in a particular currency. There is of course nothing to stop UK exporters pricing their products in Euros if they so wish...indeed when I was in business I used to export in $US because I needed to remit $US to the USA and that way I would to some extent reduce currency exposure.

[observer]

Eh Kije; yer really must do better if you want to put up an arguement for the EU: the reason "most of our trade" is now with the EU, is precisely because of our membership, and we have the nonesense of lamb (on the hoof) crossing the channel to get slaughtered, then coming back as meat - just to fiddle more money out of Brussels - call that trade?! Having ditched the cheap lamb imports from our Ozzy and Kiwi cousins, who now have to sell it to the Japs. Trade is about, exchanging goods and services that one cannot produce oneself, the exportation of surplus (that's real trade); NOT the notional nonesense we currently engage in. We joined a "common market" with our main industrial competitors (France & Germany); ditching our main suppliers of raw materials (the commonwealth), with whom we had a reciprocal and symbiotic trading arrangement. OK, the damage has been done, but restoration of those historic links is still possible, and as Paul has pointed out; would prove more profitable. :confused: And Kije, instead of pumping out the Daily Mail jibe, perhaps you could explain the benefit to the UK of being a NET contributor to the EU, and the work and benefits provider to E/Europe? :confused:

[Lt Kije]

This is Global vision this is taken from their web site and you say they are non-partisan

 

Global Vision is a non-partisan campaign group that believes Britain needs to negotiate a looser, more modern relationship with the EU to reflect the rapidly changing world of the 21st century. The new relationship should be based on trade and cooperation, whilst opting out of political and economic union.

 

Now I admit to being pro-european and from where I am standing there statement along with the facts and figures you quote is very partisan, just look at there beliefs

[asperity]

Why is it being partisan to state the obvious? :confused: :confused: