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But the stick doesn't have to include violence, that's all I'm saying. The countries that have concluded that violence towards children is not only futile but plain wrong are streets ahead of us in reducing youth crime, substance and alcohol misuse and suicide. I personally think its worth working hard towards a safer society than living in the past.

(The ostrich is a beautiful and intelligent bird - the hawk is dumb and predatory! :D )

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Actually no. They eat sand to aid their digestion. They will lie flat when they sense danger, but with tremendous eyesight, the ability to outrun a leopard and the strength to kill a lion they can look after themselves!!

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..... and they lay big eggs! :D I would suggest that many in the past, would not have been contained by the naughty step or middle class psycology, and it's thanks ultimately to physical sanctions that their rebellious behaviour was modified and they became model citizens rather than ending up in prison. :shock:8)

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But the stick doesn't have to include violence, that's all I'm saying. The countries that have concluded that violence towards children is not only futile but plain wrong are streets ahead of us in reducing youth crime, substance and alcohol misuse and suicide. I personally think its worth working hard towards a safer society than living in the past.

(The ostrich is a beautiful and intelligent bird - the hawk is dumb and predatory! :D )

You go Chrissy. My aunt and uncle were incredibly strict were my cousins, and they both ended up in trouble with the law.

 

http://www.empowermentresources.com/info2/childrenlearn-long_version.html

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I am somewhat bemused when someone starts quoting other countries.

The drink culture is a good example of the difference between the UK and the Rest of Europe.

 

Chrissy,

You are missing the point or deliberately doing so. It's not about being violent to children, but about bringing back the line that they mustn't cross, unless they are prepared to face the consequences. On the other hand running parallel with this, is teaching them and their "parents" behaviour patterns that are necessary to create a good environment.

You can't cherry pick . It is a broad problem.

By the way, they do have violent yobboes abroad, it's just that it isn't reported unless a football match has taken place.

 

Another suggestion, is to look outside your own little bubble. :wink:

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Now now Peter, we have a difference of opinion - that isn't grounds for belittling or bullying. I have lived and worked in London, the Midlands, the North and the States - with some of the most disadvanted, deprived and dangerous children - hardly a little bubble. My view is that parents and teachers should have the confidence and knowledge to manage children's behaviour without resorting to violence. Yours is to go straight to the violent response, even when its known to be pointless and unjustifiable. People hit children because its easy and it requires no brain power.

We need to constantly be aware of research here and in other countries because we are failing a generation of children. Give teaching back to the teachers by scrapping all sats and league tables, give children back to their parents by reducing state interference and start protecting those most at risk. Not psychology or middle class - just common sense based on an english lifetime and in depth knowledge of child care abroad

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But Chrissy,

 

why when we had corporal and capital punishment in this country did we not have gangs of feral, school aged children running riot in our towns with no respect for anything or anybody?

 

Kids of 20 or 30 years ago would not have dreamed or dared to have done a fraction of that which is done by the kids of today.

 

The teachers and the system as a whole has tried the softly softly approach to bad and criminal behaviour and as far as I can see (and no doubt many others) It doesn't work. Kids need discipline of all types including physical discipline. Not violence as you like to call it but discipline. They also need the hugs and loves and kisses that also go with being cared for. I personally don't smack my son (who is 6) nor did I do it too much to my oldest son who is 22 and at Uni and with no criminal record (so far) except as an absolute last resort and it works as a last resort because they know where the line is and they don't cross it.

 

Even the biggest who is 6ft 4 would get a smack if he was out of line because he still lives under my roof and my rules; he can have his full human rights quota when he clears off and gets his own place and starts working for a living!

 

A mixture of all forms of discipline is needed; not just limiting your options because as has been seen for the last 10 years or more; if a kid knows that the teacher can only go to a certain point with his punishments.... there is no deterrent.

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Woa! I hope your son doesn't mind your public emasculation of him.

So the mods and rockers kicking each other to bits on Brighton seafront never happened? Teddy boys slashing each other with razors were a figment of the imagination? City centres never were so dangerous for young women in the 70s that the police advised us not to go out without a chaperone because they couldn't guarantee to protect us?

And how did these well-beaten, well behaved youngsters turn out? Well, they became the parents of the very young people you are now criticising!

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And the punks used to batter the Mods and the Mods took on the Rockers.... but did the kids take on the pensioners or the home owner protecting his property? No of course not. There has always been rivalry between different groups be they racial or "man made" for want of a better phrase.

 

Surely most of the ones on Brighton beach and the like were not kids of 14 and 15 anyway otherwise they couldn't have ridden their scooters there could they??? :D

 

City Centres have never been safe places anyway; ask Jacqui Smith; the last time she was on the streets of London she had 4 coppers and full body armour to keep the youths at bay!

 

In answer to your final point; yes, maybe they did turn into parents of the feral youth of today but more likely the grandparents who then sired the dole scrounging feral parents who seem to so dominate the news these days

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I think that's a difference of perception and personal experience Baz. I certainly remember pensioners being frightened of young people when I was a child. I would also say (backed up with any research or figures you look at) that children are much more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators. We (i.e. the adults) have created a society where children are killing children.

But what part do you feel the media plays in this perception? We now have 24 hour television news and a multitude of print news - all striving for profit and all trying to outdo their rivals with increasingly sensationalist - and often salacious - reporting.

Is this fuelling a fear of crime that is disproportionate to the reality?

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I think that's a difference of perception and personal experience Baz. I certainly remember pensioners being frightened of young people when I was a child. I would also say (backed up with any research or figures you look at) that children are much more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators. We (i.e. the adults) have created a society where children are killing children.

But what part do you feel the media plays in this perception? We now have 24 hour television news and a multitude of print news - all striving for profit and all trying to outdo their rivals with increasingly sensationalist - and often salacious - reporting.

Is this fuelling a fear of crime that is disproportionate to the reality?

NOW you are moving the goal posts.

And you are reading what you want to see.

What is being said, that discipline should be allowed. I have never gone straight the the caning smacking and so on.

All I have said was that caning or detention or whatever, never did me any harm.But I do believe that IF children cross the line, they should be punished accordingly, so that they won't want to do it again.

It's ok quoting what you have done and where you have been, but you can't generalise.

Years ago, we had discipline AND respect. These days we have neither.

Does your approach work across the country? It doesn't seem to be just lately.

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Well the proof is in the stats: over the last 10 years fatal stabbings have increased by 25%, and fatal beatings by over 50% - says it all really. :roll:

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With regards to teacher's pay....the reason for their strike, guess they've forgotten about the final salary pension scheme they enjoy. I understand it has a deficit nearing ?1 billion, maybe the taxpayers who ultimately have to fund it and who aren't members of such a generous scheme should go on strike to stop funding it. :wink:

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Is this fuelling a fear of crime that is disproportionate to the reality?

 

I think that is a valid comment and applicable to some parts of the country and indeed to certain groups, mainly the elderly. My 81 year old Mother for example who believes there is a lot of crime where she lives, but the reality is that it is a low crime area.

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Sanity at last!

Please don't keep making personal attacks in order to make a point. Why are my opinions seen as 'generalising'?

Parents are still legally allowed to hit their children and schools have the same disciplinary powers they have always had, except corporal punishment that went out over 20 years ago. Indeed the government has recently increased the disciplinary powers of schools.

The reality is that teachers have lost all of their autonomy and creativity through this crazy government's obsession with testing. Initial training and continuing professional development fail to equip teachers with the tools of the trade, for example knowledge about child development or how to lead a class appropriately. Many inner city schools have a huge staff turnover and we have Heads running schools now who would never have been considered experienced enough 20 years ago. Is it any wonder that some schools find it difficult?

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Agree with your points about Gov micro-management of schools and parents. :) Apparently there was/is a private school that , by a loop hole, has escaped the ban on corporal punishment, which the Gov are busy trying to correct via legislation (for this ONE school!). :roll: Be interesting to evaluate the results from this particular school, and standards of pupil behaviour?! :?

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