Teachers Strike

[Bazj]

..

 

nothing like a well thought out response eh?

[Dizzy]

The reason I did not complete my last posting was becasue the dog ate it Sir ..

[Peter T]

Perhaps you need to feed your dog.

[Chrissy]

Teachers aren't being told to 'ignore disruptive behaviour' obs, they're being encouraged to be sensible and treat each pupil as an individual. Its called 'planned ignoring' which means if you have a pupil who is 'playing to the audience' your planned strategy may be to ignore the behaviour (providing its not dangerous) so the pupil realises that their behaviour isn't getting them the attention they want. If proper behaviour support was given the emphasis it deserves schools wouldn't have so many problems, but due to 10 years of the government introducing testing, targets and more testing, many teachers don't teach - they only teach to the test.

[observer]

Eh Chris - get real: are you trying to tell us that a disruptive pupil, who has got the attention of most of the class, should be left to take over? Just cos the teacher "ignores" their behaviour, doesn't mean the rest of the class will; and it incites the perpetrator to even more disruption. No wonder some kids are leaving school nowadays without an education.

[Chrissy]

I'm saying that teachers who are confident because they have been well trained will know how to manage the situation and employ a variety of strategies. It is real - I know!

Most children (contrary to popular opinion), are lovely, decent and hard working. If the teacher has a good relationship with his/her pupils, the pupils will follow the lead of the teacher, not the disruptive pupil.

[observer]

Errm, the psycological approach eh?! Yes, whilst it may be true that a superior mind and personality can dominate a situation, when dealing with inferior and inexperienced minds; there will always be some young buck who views this as a challenge to compensate for a lack of ability to learn what their inexperience can't value - education. The simple solution is to remove such disruption from the class, thus allowing the rest to learn; and in the "old days", the perpetrator would receive a painfull sanction to remind him/her of their place in the scheme of things, alas no longer possible in this world of human rights and litigation.

[Chrissy]

Bosses used to employ 'painful sanctions' to their workers- it 'worked' but we got rid of that. Men used to apply 'painful sanctions' to their wives-it 'worked' but we got rid of that. We then realised that it didn't work for pupils and it was ethically unjustifiable-by so we got rid of it. Come on obs, are we a society that needs to use violence against our children? I thought we were supposed to be civilised.

[Dizzy]

Come on obs, are we a society that needs to use violence against our children? I thought we were supposed to be civilised.

 

Chrissy, although I though I was starting to see what you are saying... but what do you suggest we all do when we become a society where CHILDREN use violence against US or indeed OTHER children ?

 

If this sort of behaviour is not stopped at a very early age by both discipline at home AND within school then where does this leave us all ?

[Peter T]

Chrissy,

I don't know what calm cloistered world you live in (it must be utopia),

but discipline never hurt anyone, and was the making of most people.

It comes in many forms, and caning is a last resort, and the pain of that (mostly hurt pride) lasted about 5 mins, although the bruises might last longer, but it was normally a very good deterrent after the first occasion. Tended to get the attention.

 

I am amazed that these people who don't like discipline and punishment, have NEVER come up with an answer that would stop all the violence and bad behaviour of the younger generation. AND given examoples to show that their way worked.

[Eagle]

We then realised that it didn't work for pupils

 

Oh yes it did Chrissy, who is this 'we' by the way?

[observer]

I think Chris, you've admitted that painfull sanctions "worked" - but deny there application in a "civilzed" society. Well, you may have a point if your talking about the civilized children of ambitious middle class parents, though even some of them rebel and slip through the net. Perhaps if you served in a city sink school, where the kids have a feckless mother and an absent father, where peer group "gang" pressures and loyalties are everything, where shooting each other is just now part of the course - you may reconsider sparing the rod. Cos sparing the rod in such circumstances is a recipe for anarchy NOT civilization. From the perspective of a nice comfortable sub-urban semi, where the major crime may be littering; it's easy to theorise about civilized behaviour. Alas, the children of the new underclass are now growing up without any boundaries or sanctions, into fully grown psycopaths, with no feelings of guilt or remorse about their selfish actions. With Parents (at least those who care), Teachers and the Police illiciting no respect from these ferrel kids, due to their lack of authority, in turn due to wish washy liberal notions of human rights - we have bred a generation of such psycopaths fueling a downward spiral of social anarchy. Humanbeings are NOT intrisically "civilised"; they have to learn to be, and in some cases that requires effective sanctions - behavior can be conditioned as proven by Prof Pavlov and his dogs!

[Peter T]

Wow. Brilliant post.obs. Well said.

[Agamemnon1]

Excellent post Obs.

 

A swift clip around the ear sets the boundaries and dicipline. Just observe the pride of lions with cubs or a colony of apes, no discussions or the naughty chair ! just an action that they all understand ! Overstep the boundaries and you WILL be punished. Instantly !!

[Dizzy]

Excellent post Obs and I agree 200%

 

If there was an 'emoticon' for a standing ovation then I would gladly give it to you.

 

It's a great pity that those who make the school rules (and indeed the so called 'human rights' rules) do not seem to understand that the softly softly approach is obviously NOT working:D

[observer]

Perhaps food for thought when considering which Political Party to vote for? All three of the main Parties are commited to EU membership, from where this human rights nonesense originated, and all three main Parties have sustained this liberal trend at Westminister - so perhaps time for a change?!

[Paul Kennedy]

Oh I think they do, but they just can't bring themselves to admit it and that they were wrong. A great pity, because the sooner they do, the sooner it can be sorted out. The admission of being wrong is not a weakness but rather the sign of a strong character.

 

Agree with all the positive posts regarding Observer's post. A man on form.

 

PS Observer nipped in with a post, mine is in response to Dismayed's

[observer]

Up late Paul, cup of cocoa and off to bed for you young man!

[Bazj]

I would say that Chrissy is a teacher or works in a school. Although quite how she can say that "proper" discipline of children didn't work is beyond me.

 

I grew up in Bewsey in the 60's and 70's and we had the cane in the infants school (well it was the jam spoon off mrs seymour) junior school (Mr Dendy was a master at it!!) and finally there was the cane at Boteler Grammar School

 

Back in those days, I don't remember 14, 15 and 16 year old kids kicking and stamping adults to death. I don't remember 16 year olds shooting kids on their way home from football. I don't remember being part of anything like that or knowing about anything like that happening in Warrington or anywhere else for that matter.

 

Yes there were murders and manslaughters but none as far as I can remember were carried out by drunken or drugged up kids who have no respect for age or authority.

 

Chrissy, if you are indeed a teacher you and your collegues should be lobbying the government to bring back proper discipline as well as shouting for more money

[Dizzy]

Oh I think they do, but they just can't bring themselves to admit it and that they were wrong. A great pity, because the sooner they do, the sooner it can be sorted out. The admission of being wrong is not a weakness but rather the sign of a strong character.

 

Agree with all the positive posts regarding Observer's post. A man on form.

 

PS Observer nipped in with a post, mine is in response to Dismayed's

 

But will they ever admit that they were wrong and start to sort things out

 

There is no real form of discipline in our schools these days as the teachers powers are restricted due to rules, regulations and human rights along with the fear of being sued and the kids know it.

 

Is it any wonder that some kids run riot knowing that the worst they will probably get is a few days off school due to exclusion. Is that a punishment or pleasure?

 

For example if child 'A' is assaulted by child 'B' in school is that the fault of the child.. the parent..the teacher or the system? If the parent doesn't care and the teachers/system cant do anything then then what?

 

Surely if child 'B' knows that they will be severly dealt with for their behaviour they may think twice about it but with the current system why should they worry.

 

On the other side of the fence if child 'C' is very upset about something a teacher should be able to console the child without the fear of being reprimanded for perhaps putting a comforting arm around them.

 

The whole system is upside down, back to front and down right stupid if you ask me, and the main reason is the ridiculous human rights and powerless rules that have been brought into the equation

[observer]

As if, by coincidence, to underline this thread:- figures have just been issued by the Home Office:- Fatal Stabbings have increased by 25%; fatal beatings (head kicked in) have increased by over 50% under NEW Labour. So much for "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime".

[Windy]

Its a joke isn't it.

 

The police caught someone red handed stealing from my property thanks to a neighbour and I got a letter to say the person had been given six weeks curfew and a ?60 fine.

 

Nothing for my inconvenience or the damage he had done.

 

Hardly seems a deterent does it.

[Chrissy]

Oh, ganging up on me eh!! I spent 20 years in teaching-mainly in south east london with 'maladjusted' or 'ebd' children. I continue to work in services to children. Audit report 2002 found that 75% of the young people who committed the most violent crimes were victims of substantial child abuse. These are not young people who would learn from physical punishment in a school. They have had a lifetime of it, which is where their violence stems from. Violence breeds violence. I also don't believe that 'the good old days' really existed in the way people like to think. I was dealing with children carrying weapons in the 70s and 80s. We are now more aware of it, partly because it sells newspapers and partly because this government wants to shift responsibility from its own failings onto children and families.

Discipline isn't about being violent towards children. Its about creating a consistent and supportive environment. Must make one final point about the Human Rights Act. The UK was one of the two main authors and one of the the first countries to ratify it-in 1951. It is in no way an example of the UK being being 'governed' by Europe!

[Peter T]

Ostrich Syndrome?

[observer]

It's quite simple Chrissy; carrot and stick, eventually produces a conditioned reflex even with the thickest louts.