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Lucy

Why the change?

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Sha

I thought you had gone away! But you have gone to considerable trouble to study my posts so I will reply.

I still believe you (and others) have misread, or misinterpreted my remarks.

Some, I will admit, are insulting. But they were in reply to insulting remarks made to me. As such, they were justified.

 

But most are factual.

 

Litter, for instance. It is worse now than it used to be. A lot worse.

Ergo, it is the younger generation that is responsible. Fact - not pomposity, not snobbishness. Feeling superior? Well, maybe. But I think anyone who doesn't drop litter is entitled to feel superior to someone who does.

 

Working class? Well I've worked hard all my life myself, so I am not looking down on the working class. I simply compared the working class of a previous generation with that of today and found today's to be wanting. They do not respect the environment, other people, etc., like their predecessors did. Fact.

 

Of course this is a generalisation. I thought we would all understand that. There are good people in all generations and in all classes. Unfortunately it seems to me there are more bad people today than there used to be - and that they are worse than they used to be. And I am talking about all classes.

 

As for the mud slinging - it was not I that started personal mudslinging. I was generalising and also quoting comments made by a man (ordinary, decent, working class bloke) who I met in the street and who shared my views. He picked up a piece of litter which I had dropped accidentally, before I had chance to pick it up myself. I thanked him, commented that it was unusual and he said we were probably the last generation that would be bothered about it. I have no doubt there are a few youngsters around who would do it, but judging from the amount of litter around, there can't be many.

 

As to Fatshaft. I had seen his posts on this forum for ages and never thought anything about his name until a friend (a male friend, at that) suggested that it was intentionally vulgar and that he was surprised it was allowed on the Forum. I originally referred to him as an objectionable person in his mid-40s because I did not wish to repeat the name. I now know there is a golf club which bears that name so I have used the name in posts. But I still suspect that Fatshaft intended a double meaning when he chose it and it may even be that the golf club manufacturer also intended a double meaning. Companies do that sort of thing nowadays - which is another example of falling standards. And the public let them get away with it.

I was accused of having a perverted mind over this issue, by the way, by someone who doesn't recognise that to consider my remarks as perverted required him to be equally perverted!

 

So I still think you have misread my posts. I treat all people as being my equals (or even superiors) until they do something to show me otherwise. I have traded insults, yes, but I deny pomposity, snobbishness, etc. And I very much resent the repeated accusations that people who live in Lymm (particularly if they are in the golf club) are "snooty." I still think that people who regard others as being snooty have got inferiority complexes.

 

It may be that you deny the existence of a social class structure (or resent the existence of a social class structure) in which case your views are understandable, particularly if you regard yourself as being in its lower strata. I don't know you, I have no wish to insult you and I realise you are entitled to your opinions.

But in this particular debate, I am afraid you are incorrect in your assertions about me.

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Your turn Sha, then Fatshafts followed by Lucy again.

 

How Juvenile. I thought that you were above this playground bickering.

I much preferred it when you were criticising people for eating in the streets.

 

Get a grip people. Call it a draw before I lock the topic.

Peter Admin. :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

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Personally I wouldn't lock the topic as it's rather an amusing read and at least 'they' are only posting in one topic :lol:

 

Lucy, I thought you had mellowed a bit in your last post ... until I got to the last three paragraphs and maybe if you stopped repeatedly pressing the fire button people wouldn't fire back :lol:

 

Just for interest there have been a few topics about litter on here since 2007 (Lucy you will already know this) and strikes me that the litter problem is obviously not as bad now as it was then.

 

Anyway I'm off to the read some of the grown up topics on here now but no doubt this one will have grown by the time I come back again.

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Dizzy

I have made a conscious effort to "mellow" even in my final comments.

But litter is a subject on which I feel extremely strongly and believe if more people spoke out about it, something might be done about it. But it is far easier for people to look the other way and accept it. That's how Hitler came to power remember?

But whenever anyone speaks out about litter there always seems to be a brigade that thinks this in someway makes them "snooty" or a snob, or whatever such ridiculous tags they choose to attach to it.

I can think of no reason for people to do this other than that they are litter bugs themselves.

In one post, earlier on, someone said they had accosted someone about dropping litter and they responded by talking about their "rights."

Ye Gods, if there are people on the planet who think they have a right to drop litter, what chance do we have.

 

Peter T

If you found the issue of eating in the street more interesting I can resurrect it if you like. But really, eating in the street is largely to blame for the litter. We have areas where drinking in the street is banned - same should hold good for eating.

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Lucy... the problem as I see it is unless there are litter wardens on every street handing out big fines to anyone dropping litter (which lets face it can't happen) then some people will always do it.

 

Personally I don'k think the problem is particularly bad now on a day to day basis but that's probably because the council employ people to walk the streets picking up other people's litter and of course many 'good citizens' also 'pick up when they see' too. I know we/they shouldn't have to but every little helps eh

 

Weekends are a completely different matter though and Saturday/Sunday mornings in the village here often look like the refuse truck has shed it's load.

 

One thing I have noticed though is that despite the growing number of people in the town, villages etc and the vast number of shops/fast food outlets etc etc there doesn't actually seem to be very many BINS.

 

Anyway, as annoying as litter it's just one of those things that happens and there's not a lot we can realy do about it other than hope that parent's bring their kids up to know it is wrong and that grown ups who do it get a telling off from the kids :)

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I definitely think there is more chewing gum debris than there used to be but not so sure about general litter. More people will always equate to more mess, so its progressive I suppose. I do feel that there is an element of rose coloured glasses from the oldsters but thats to be expected. :wink:

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Lucy. I am on your side re. the litter, but it has been getting worse for generations not just recently.

My problem with these posts is that no-one is making positive points and leaving well alone, but posting on a tit for tat basis.

 

As they say in boxing, jab and move, don't just stand there slugging it out.

 

Whilst there is no discipline in society standards will drop. But Hitler won't be coming back. We might get obs or kije instead. :wink:

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Working class? Well I've worked hard all my life myself, so I am not looking down on the working class. I simply compared the working class of a previous generation with that of today and found today's to be wanting. They do not respect the environment, other people, etc., like their predecessors did. Fact..

 

While I am not one of the global warming nazis, this is an astonishingly laughable statement. If this is what qualifies foir a fact in your world, in the face of all eveidence to the contrary, then it's no wonder you come across as such an objectionable character.

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I now know there is a golf club which bears that name so I have used the name in posts. But I still suspect that Fatshaft intended a double meaning when he chose it and it may even be that the golf club manufacturer also intended a double meaning. Companies do that sort of thing nowadays - which is another example of falling standards. And the public let them get away with it..

The "stick" bit of a golf club, has always been called a shaft, Wilson changed the stick by making it of universal thickness all the way from top to hosel, as opposed to the traditional tapering effect, hence they came up with the entirely appropriate "fat" appendage (oh god, I said appendage) to "shaft".

 

It says rather a lot that you are even attempting to sling mud now at one of the world's largest sporting manufacturers in your war against all things modern.

 

Pretty clear, even after it has been so clearly pointed out to you by Sha, that you are incapable of comprehending just how appalingly you present yourself.

 

Good for you, have a long and happy one (though I doubt you'll ever be happy unless you're whinging about something).

 

My lastpost on this embarrassing topic.

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If the cultural arguement against littering doesn't sway you - just think of the overall costs of clearing it up - paid for out of your taxes? :?

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Well that was short lived....

 

You know what Fats...... I'm speechless ... you are both clearly as bad as each other and talk about repetative and dragging up old points :roll:

 

Can't you both swap phone numbers or 'pm' each other instead PLEASE :?:lol: I'm starting to wonder if you have both met in a former life as you really don't seem to have much patience or liking for each other on here do you :shock::lol:

 

Must admit your name never struck me as being odd Fats but thanks to Lucy pointing it out we all now know a little more about golf clubs. I must remember to ask my dad and my son if they would like one of those Wilson 'specials' for their birthdays :lol:

 

Night all and happy posting.. preferably on another topic eh :D

 

Sha... don't you dare :P

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The "stick" bit of a golf club, has always been called a shaft, Wilson changed the stick by making it of universal thickness all the way from top to hosel, as opposed to the traditional tapering effect, hence they came up with the entirely appropriate "fat" appendage (oh god, I said appendage) to "shaft".

 

Right, so your username has nothing to do with the size of your willy then.

 

Mmmmkay.

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Only if it is a shortened version of Wilson. :shock:

 

Having wandered around the town centre recently I have noticed that there does not seem to be as many rubbish bins in certain areas as others. Perhaps one way to address this is to make it part of any fast food franchise to pay for a bin to be installed within a certain radius of their premises.

 

I know that at one time McDs used to have staff that would spend an hour a shift walking round the immediate are clearing up any rubbish from their outlets. Do not know if they still do this.

 

The thing about littering is that it all depends on how you have been dragged up. As the son of a working class family (going back several generations) you would expect that I would be a loutish yob who would not care what he dropped where. However you would be wrong. It was instilled into me from an early age that there were certain things that you did not do.

 

You did not drop litter, you did not give cheek to your elders and you respected other peoples property. (There were a lot of others but I do not want to waffle on too much). So how was this upbringing enforced, by a swift clip around the noggin for a first offence often followed by a period of eating standing up for any further offences. Trouble is all the do gooders in the modern world have outlawed such teaching methods. :roll:

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At the risk of perpetuating the part of this thread that should have stopped ages ago, and maybe make Lucy feel a little better, I?ll admit to having had exactly the same conversation with Fats when the Guardians forum was active.

 

Back then, there was a whole rash of posters using not so subtle innuendoes and if that wasn?t bad enough, the number one poster there was (and still is) listed as the Wafty Cranker. :shock:

 

Now I suspect this was probably some techno-geek who set the site up but it does bring into question whether the use of names like this demonstrates hyper cool creative thinking or just plain and simple childish behaviour.

 

From a commercial point of view and given the demographics, having a web site dominated by sexual user names isn?t exactly the brightest of ideas. Well it isn?t from my perspective but then again I?m just an oldie so what would I know? Question is though, is this all part of falling standards? :roll:

 

Bill :)

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OK, on the assumption that our golfing friend is as good as his word, I too will make this my last word on this subject. Been very busy for a few days or would have made it earlier!

Yes Bill, I think it IS all part of falling standards. Even humour has deteriorated and now seems to have be vulgar before many people see it as funny.

 

Dizzy. I see no reason at all why the council should not have wardens out with the power to issue on-the-spot fines to litterbugs. Other, of course, than the fact that the law allows people to evade the penalty by picking up the litter when told to do so. It's a bit like letting burglars off if they say they are sorry for breaking into someone's house.

 

I will finish by noting that I have been accused repeatedly of regarding myself as "superior" to others, when in fact all I have done is criticise litterbugs and others who display falling standards of behaviour. But at least I have not called anyone an "oik" which, apparently, is someone who is rude, vulgar and "socially inferior."

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Dizzy. I see no reason at all why the council should not have wardens out with the power to issue on-the-spot fines to litterbugs. Other, of course, than the fact that the law allows people to evade the penalty by picking up the litter when told to do so. It's a bit like letting burglars off if they say they are sorry for breaking into someone's house...

 

I realise that it was your last word on the subject Lucy so no point in me making further comment really.. but I will anyway :oops:

 

It would cost the council money to employ such wardens to walk the streets and issue on the spot fines to litter droppers.

 

Even if they could afford it then like you say the fines would be easy to evade but not only that it would be the droppers word against the wardens and unless of course the wardens were lucky enough to photograph or video the person actually dropping the litter there would be proof to enforce the fine should they refuse to pay it :wink:

 

By the way I really like the word 'oik' and it reminds me of cute little pigglets :oops::lol:

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