observer Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Do we really need a change in the law - to allow "assisted suicide" or should we just allow juries to decide on a case by case basis? Seems Ray Gosling has thrown the brown stuff at the fan with his so-called addmission - but presuming he says absolutley nothing to the police and assuming they do find the individual allegedley involved, and the hospital involved, and the death certificate - the death certificate will indicate the official cause of death; then they have to find a body in order to verify cause of death, which could be a tad difficult if the deceased was cremated ! Seems if Doctors take away pain by higher and higher doses of morphin, there's no need for this debate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 .but people have been charged and convicted of murder without there being even a body to examine. If the overwhelming evidence is enough, a conviction can be gained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Not quite Baz: if they do eventually locate a death certificate for this alleged person; cause of death will be shown on it. IF cause of death, doesn't match with the alleged murder mode, they,ve got a problem. Their only recourse then, would be to exhume the body for an autopsy, which would be difficult if he was cremated 20 years ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Quite a bit of what this man said didn't really sound feasible. Are we really to believe that his friend was truly lying in a hospital in agonising pain for hours and the medical staff did nothing to alleviate his suffering? Morphine has been used for years as a painless passage out of this world, not quite in large enough doses to be classed as legal euthanasia but enough to ensure there is no consiousness of pain until the patient dies of 'natural causes'. If he was suffering pain the medics would have dealt with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 In theory, your correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 if the law is changed does that mean we can chuck those off the bridge when they threaten to jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 only if they really want to jump, in the first place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 and providnign they are holding up the traffic on one of China's bridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 I always cringe at the mass of coppers surrounding a house for ages because the sole occupant has threatened to kill himself. One PC and one Undertaker wound be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Nice to see we agree on something Eagle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 would be a great comedy sketch that eagle. police constable standing at the gate with undertaker and trolley with body bag. pair of them chatting and sharing a flask of coffee. quick glance at the house, quick glance at the watch. "hope he hurries up corrie will be on in ten minutes" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Durnim Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 When a person is attempting suicide from a tall structure, then the police arrive, then they try to talk them down, I always think that there is something wrong with how that phrase is worded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 Having had to talk these prats down in the distant past, I wish the law had been changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Anyone who means it, does it. Anyone threatening and hanging about on the edge or ringing the Samaritans wants to be stopped. However, veering dangerously close to the original topic, I think that dragging a recently bereaved person through the court process for months is a cruel and horrible thing to do. The law needs clarifying, so people know exactly what they may and may not do and exactly what the penalty is. At the moment, it's pretty well pot luck and that's not fair on anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Wasn't a problem for Gosling, until he opened his mouth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 But his friend died in hospital, as expected, so there probably wasn't even a flicker about signing the death certificate. Where someone dies at home and hasn't seen the doctor recently enough, there has to be a PM and any overdose or other action is going to show up then. That leaves the Police to decide whether to proceed or not and some poor soul who has helped gets months of waiting to see what happens, whilst other poor souls who didn't help have everyone poking about in their business to make sure. Either way, the current laws just make a bad situation worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Well, not sure we can rely on the medics - wasn't there recently a case of a woman waking up in the funeral parlour?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 The law needs clarifying, so people know exactly what they may and may not do and exactly what the penalty is. At the moment, it's pretty well pot luck and that's not fair on anyone. In the Gosling case the law is clear, killing someone by suffocation or any other means is unlawful killing/manslaughter/murder whatever. He should have left it to the medics and the morphine, which would have been an easier passage out than being suffocated. I wonder whether he could have actually done what he has 'confessed' to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Think the question :is: why has he gone public with this story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted February 25, 2010 Report Share Posted February 25, 2010 Same reason he makes his living getting his face on the telly, I'd have said..... Yes, what he did was murder, not assisted suicide. Manslaughter if you argue he was under enormous stress and it was a mercy killing. Where we need a change to the law is the situation where a husband asks his wife to administer an injection or help him take pills because he intends to commit suicide and just can't quite manage the physical task alone. In those cases, the current law leaves the wife completely ignorant of the penalty. She might get a conditional discharge or ten years in prison. How can she make a decision - and how can he ask her to take that big a risk? Everyone's miserable and we foot the bill for a trial that does no good in the end either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryLightweight Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 Quite a bit of what this man said didn't really sound feasible.Are we really to believe that his friend was truly lying in a hospital in agonising pain for hours and the medical staff did nothing to alleviate his suffering? Morphine has been used for years as a painless passage out of this world, not quite in large enough doses to be classed as legal euthanasia but enough to ensure there is no consiousness of pain until the patient dies of 'natural causes'. If he was suffering pain the medics would have dealt with it. My own mother went 11 days in Warrington Hospital without sleep due to the super strength chemo they used on her that burned her back so bad she couldnt lie down. She wet herself a number of times waiting for the staff to come and help her to go to the loo due to the pain. When I found out I spoke to the nurses on duty and demanded she be given something to help her to sleep, they put an automatic morphine injector box thing onto her stomach and said that would do the trick....had I known she would go into a sleep that she would never wake up from I wouldnt have left the hospital that night. I wasnt told this was the 'final solution'. The point is, how can people who dont matter decide the fate of your nearest and dearest without your consent yet you cant decide the fate of your loved ones without the permission of strangers...who is to say who is right ? Faith in our legal and medical system? You're having a laugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 It's something not talked about publicly, but the medics have always applied an expediency approach to the "final solution". I recall visiting the old "Geriatric" Ward many moons ago, and noticed many of the bed notes had "NFR"written across them, on enquiring, I was told it meant " Not For Resucitation" - so they evidently needed the bed space even then! Ultimately - pain relief IS the final solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 Obs, my mum was down as NFR two years ago after she had her stroke. She's still going and the practice still continues. The families have no rights of intervention on the NFR decision taken by the doctors so why should they have any say if a patient wants to die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 That was my point Baz, the medics are writing (old) folk off every day of the week on the basis of convenience, so all this hype on the sanctity of life is rather hypocritical and confusing, when on the other side of the coin, you can get rescue services risking life and limb to save some Richard Head who's got themselves into trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Obs, ......The families have no rights of intervention on the NFR decision taken by the doctors so why should they have any say if a patient wants to die? I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that Baz. The decision not to resucitate should ideally be taken by Doctors after consultation with the family. If the decision is taken and the family then just informed, they should at least be given the medical reasons....such as overly disabilitating brain damage, unnecessary further suffering etc. I know of families who have disagreed with Doctors decisions and forced them to continue treatment. Whilst in principal I agree with the idea of euthanasia to prevent unnecessary suffering I think that to legalise it might be treading far too dangerous ground. I think Obs is right in saying that the medics are writing old folk off every day of the week on the basis of convenience. Increasingly these days the 'sanctity of life' is weighed against the cost effectiveness of treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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