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Should the burka be banned?

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LP, I think you are moving into a "protesting too much" mode. I doubt some of your reasoning would have been used if the wearers were blokes.

 

If the banning of the burka makes us in anyway safer then ban it.

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I mentioned buses, trains and ticket offices because photo ID is almost always required for concessionary fares.

 

Police stations may have female officers and examination rooms, but police on the beat do not have such facilities readily available. If they have reason to ascertain a burka wearers identity do they have to arrest them and arrange transport to the station first?

 

Lots of products are age restricted and require ID - paints and many household cleaning products contain solvents and are restricted, anything with a sharp edge from a craft knife to a kitchen knife is also restricted, many moslem men smoke (hookah pipes originate in predominately moslem countries) so their wives may well be buying tobacco when out shopping, DVD's and video games are age restricted, taking out a mobile phone contract requires photo ID, as does buying anything on credit (which moslems are not supposed to do, but many avail themselves of 0% APR deals on furniture etc. as there is no money lending for profit involved)

 

Most shops have to insist on photo ID as there's no other way of being sure that the ID belongs to whoever is presenting it (absolutely anyone could present their parents credit card if they knew the PIN).

 

Bank, bureau do change and post office staff also frequently have to confirm a customers identity via photo ID to comply with the legal requirements of their job.

 

(by the way, driving licences have had photos on them for over 10 years now)

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LP, I think you are moving into a "protesting too much" mode. I doubt some of your reasoning would have been used if the wearers were blokes.

 

If the banning of the burka makes us in anyway safer then ban it.

 

I'd have the same to say if the topic were the banning of men wearing kilts because they are divisive, not English, expressions of gang loyalty and symbols of an oppressive and violent period in history. It'd be the same load of tosh to justify stupid legislation that targeted a minority of the population who were doing no harm!

 

I object to anyone telling me what I may and may not wear. Government bans on items of clothing do not make me feel safe at all. They make me wonder what's next. We've just had a war based on a threat that wasn't really there.

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I mentioned buses, trains and ticket offices because photo ID is almost always required for concessionary fares.

 

Police stations may have female officers and examination rooms, but police on the beat do not have such facilities readily available. If they have reason to ascertain a burka wearers identity do they have to arrest them and arrange transport to the station first?

 

Lots of products are age restricted and require ID - paints and many household cleaning products contain solvents and are restricted, anything with a sharp edge from a craft knife to a kitchen knife is also restricted, many moslem men smoke (hookah pipes originate in predominately moslem countries) so their wives may well be buying tobacco when out shopping, DVD's and video games are age restricted, taking out a mobile phone contract requires photo ID, as does buying anything on credit (which moslems are not supposed to do, but many avail themselves of 0% APR deals on furniture etc. as there is no money lending for profit involved)

 

Most shops have to insist on photo ID as there's no other way of being sure that the ID belongs to whoever is presenting it (absolutely anyone could present their parents credit card if they knew the PIN).

 

Bank, bureau do change and post office staff also frequently have to confirm a customers identity via photo ID to comply with the legal requirements of their job.

 

(by the way, driving licences have had photos on them for over 10 years now)

 

What are you arguing all that for? I didn't say there were NO transactions requiring photo ID. I said that the tiny number of incidents involving veiled ladies and photo IDs did not justify banning burkas wholesale. In the tiny number of cases where burkas are not compatible with transactions, then let the adult involved make their own choice between unveiling and completing the transaction.

 

Presumably officers on the beat have some way of dealing with an unveiled person who is not carrying a photo ID at the time?

 

30+ years I've been banking - business and personal, various banks, building societies, the PO and credit card companies, loans, mortgages, ISAs, the lot and I have NEVER been asked for a photo ID. Utility bills, birth certificate, bank statements yes, pictures, no. You must be doing something far more interesting with your money than I ever have. :lol:

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We've just had a war based on a threat that wasn't really there.

 

Try telling the Iraqui Kurds that who were killed in their thousands by Saddam and his chemincal weapons. 5 different types of gas were used apparently which didn't discriminate between freedom fighters or babies.

 

Saddams track record was that he had weapons of mass destruction and he had used weapons of mass destruction and there was no reason to believe that he still didn't have them or that he wouldn't use them again.

 

As you know, I have no time for Bliar and Broon and what they have done to this once great country but when it comes to going to war in Iraq; it may have been illegal in the technical sense, but the weapons of mass destruction thing is a bit of a red herring because as I have said, Saddam had already proven that he had them by using them on his own people

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As a follow on to that, Chemical Ali, the man who orchestrated that massacre of the Kurds, was hung today by the Iraqi legal system. So some justice has been achieved. 8)

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It is a good job they didn't leave him to the British legal system, he would have been found guilty but out living on benefits for the next thirty years whilst his lawyers take millions of tax payers money appealing against his deportation.

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I'm 100% with you Baz. More than happy for Saddam and co to be removed. He didn't have the means to wipe out the population of the UK, but he was working on it and had done some terrible things in the meantime. I was simply making the point that just because the politicians say something is a threat doesn't make it true. I don't see the threat in a burka.

 

As for hanging chemical Ali, I'd have preferred him to go exactly as his Kurdish victims did. Slowly too. I'd have had him sit there several hours, knowing it was coming, but not when. It's a shame really that you can only kill a man like that once.

 

I do value our legal system, Eagle, but on occasions there is definitely more satisfaction to be had from a nice bit of old fashioned "eye for an eye" isn't there?

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LP, you may not see the threat in a burkha but many do. I feel they should be banned because they are totally at odds with even a multicultural society that the politicians say we are.

 

Personally I think that Islam as a religion is totally at odds with European and American lifestyle and culture and it is at odds with the religion of Islam for it to bend and accept other religions and beliefs as equals. I can never understand why a muslim would want to come to a land where things are so different, it must be like emigrating to mars or something. I know economics play a part, but there are many rich lands where Islam is the main religion so why come to rainy old Britain I wonder!!?

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not the Furher figure that Kije likes to paint me as, my next door neighbours are a Muslim family and they are great as neighbours and we often have their little grandson round playing with my lad, but I just can't get my head round that religion ruling all stuff!

 

I remember going round their house a few months back to look at an electrical problem the grandad was having and the TV was on some foreign channel which was constantly repeating "there is no god but allah......allah is the one....." along with some wierd music

 

Mind you I suppose it beats our lot who would sit watching Jeremy Kyle all day if they could :lol:

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Yeah, because humans communicate so much with facial expressions, a covered face is unnerving. Which translates easily into fear or dislike. Fair point that Islam is not a faith that bends easily, and that adds to the unease that comes from the unfamiliar. We in the West have largely reduced faith to the sidelines, whereas in countries where technology and medicine are so far behind for most people, faith is absolutely central and people have incredibly strong beliefs that are woven into everything.

 

I think I'd vote in favour of enforcing the burka for most of JK's guests, male and female, though. Or indeed anything that muffled them a bit. :lol:

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A lot of Muslim countries ban this kind of garment as they know its true significance- of political power. When Islamic women wear headscarves and so on, they are actually making a political statement about imposing Islam. While we in the West may perceive such clothing as oppressive towards women, what they fail to realise is that in fact what we have are in many cases militant Muslim women making a power statement of exclusivity and on their belief in Islam's right to impose itself on Western democracies with a view to eventually totally Islamise them.

 

On a much sillier note, give the statement about wearing clown outfits to supermarkets, I found myself thinking of this:

 

 

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Yeah! Liking that! :lol:

 

I did notice though that all the noise in France actually applies to around 2000 wearers, mostly near Lyon. Long way to takeover then, eh? I'd assumed the Algerian link meant the burka was quite prevalent. Wonder how many are in the UK? Can't find a figure, exept one that says less than 5% of Muslim women worldwide actually wear one. Quite eye-opening. :shock::lol:

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Yes, as they careered into the supermarket, I thought the same :lol: The bat was my favourite. What an utter fruitcake! :lol:

 

Scanned the wiki article, but couldn't see any figures. I'm quite interested now. Common sense says the figure's not high. I've only ever seen a few burkas being worn in ten years of personal travel, conferences, holidays, travel for work, meetings, the lot. If there are only 2000 burka wearers in France, which has more than twice our population of Muslims, (6% against our 2.7%) then we could be talking about just a few hundred in total. A lot less than I thought. I sort of had 20-30,000 as my ballpark. Shows what I know, eh?! :?

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Which Romans in particular? The alcoholic ones, the wife-beating ones, the religious zealot ones responsible for the Inquisition, the frock-wearing celibate ones or the normal, average ordinary ones happy to let you do what you like as long as you're not hurting anyone?

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Folk should simply adapt to the cultural norm, in whatever Country they migrate to - simple. Which means dress from some achaic religious belief should be off their agenda - however, I wouldn't go as far as to suggest they use skin whiteners and undergo cosmetic surgery to make themselves look Caucasian - which some apparently are doing! :shock:

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Which Romans in particular? The alcoholic ones, the wife-beating ones, the religious zealot ones responsible for the Inquisition, the frock-wearing celibate ones or the normal, average ordinary ones happy to let you do what you like as long as you're not hurting anyone?

 

I thought we were talking about countries and people, not Lymm. :shock:

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That's rather my point, Peter. People are pretty much the same the world over. If everyone stopped getting all NIMBY about trivia, we could focus on getting shot of the really nasty stuff.

 

The cultural norm here is to wear trackies and trainers and claim the dole, but when immigrants do that, Obs STILL moans..... :lol:

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I thought the culural norm had changed to wearing pyjamas and fluffy slippers :shock::shock: or is that just for shopping at Tesco? :lol::lol::lol:

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LP, the cultural norm you refer to may apply to "shameless" type chavs; but there was a time when TV presenters were expected to wear a suit and tie - alas all part of the general decline in standards. :wink:

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Who expected them to wear a suit and tie? The news is all that is important, the less you notice about the presenter the better.

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