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In fact, latest reports are, that there was a gun battle between factions in this particular pirate gang - as one faction wanted to hand this couple over to Islamic extremists - so, perhaps we can get down to dividing the western Indian Ocean into a grid pattern and systematically sinking every pirate suspect on sight, until cleared. :wink:

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In fact, latest reports are, that there was a gun battle between factions in this particular pirate gang - as one faction wanted to hand this couple over to Islamic extremists - so, perhaps we can get down to dividing the western Indian Ocean into a grid pattern and systematically sinking every pirate suspect on sight, until cleared. :wink:

 

Still not getting the part where our lads should get shot to bits over this.

 

And how does this gun battle serve your argument? You're not making sense. Here's a prime example of one faction preventing another from doing something inflammatory that would bring on warfare. Clear evidence that they have the sense to police themselves to avoid disaster. Similarly, they will negotiate a ransom that can be afforded - they will take ?40K instead of killing the couple in anger over not getting ?4M. So, give them the option of avoiding disaster by going straight and negotiate an affordable price, then make it clear that breaking the agreement is an act of war and the UN will be in there with gunboats.

 

By all means tell me that'll never get organised. But don't tell me it's not basic common sense, because you can see it working all over the place. From paying kids money to stay in school, to programmes for young offenders, to paying people for looking after endangered species instead of eating them. Tourism to Africa has saved more elephants than war on poachers ever did.

 

Course, there's no amount of logic will stop you testosterone-laden bloke-creatures wanting to shout and shoot thing, is there? Are there any lady pirates? :lol:

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LP, have you thought this through so little that you haven't realised that it would be in your "pirate police's" interests to ensure that piracy continued, in order to justify their continued existence.

 

While we're at this appeasement of criminals lark, maybe we should just give all habitual muggers and house burglars ?30K a year so they can continue to get what they covet without working for it.

 

Drunk drivers could all get chauffeur driven cars.

 

Arsonists could be employed as firemen, they like watching things burn.

 

And maybe providing trips to visit child prostitutes in Thailand free to paedophiles would also be a good idea.

 

Piracy is a crime and it should be punished sufficiently harshly to deter others - not rewarded with a uniform, a free AK-47 and a taxpayer funded salary.

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Sorry but I just can?t agree with any of LP?s argument.

 

The idea of giving criminals money not to commit crime would only serve to ensure that the practice would become more widespread.

 

The way I see it is that only way to stop this sort of thing happening once and for all is to literally blow them out of the water.

 

Bill :)

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How do you suggest they make or earn a decent living in a failed state

 

Some of us manage to; right here in Browns Liebour Britain OK??? :lol::lol:

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Pay money LP, and they'll keep coming back for more; which is the basis of blackmail and a lesson learnt by the Saxons paying danegeld, or the Byzantines investing huge amounts of gold to keep barbarians fighting each other rather than themselves - problem is - WE havn't got the money in any event to waste on a latter day Mafia. Don't actually think our Navy personel would be in too much danger of being shot with an AK47, if we're using torpedoes, heavy naval guns and air strikes to take out these thieves. :roll:

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LP, have you thought this through so little that you haven't realised that it would be in your "pirate police's" interests to ensure that piracy continued, in order to justify their continued existence.

 

 

If you bothered to read what I wrote all the way to the end before arguing, you'd have absorbed the fact that nobody is getting paid to police piracy. All pirates get paid as long as there is no piracy and any act of piracy causes the immediate withdrawal of all payment and the commencement of military action. See, Pete, carrot and stick.

 

And what does this have to do with domestic criminals? It's a specific discussion on how to stop piracy off the cost of Africa. Something that will never happen unless there is a means of replacing the income for people who don't have the option of becoming a printer..... no matter how many you shoot or kill, they have no other choices.

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Pay money LP, and they'll keep coming back for more; which is the basis of blackmail and a lesson learnt by the Saxons paying danegeld, or the Byzantines investing huge amounts of gold to keep barbarians fighting each other rather than themselves - problem is - WE havn't got the money in any event to waste on a latter day Mafia. Don't actually think our Navy personel would be in too much danger of being shot with an AK47, if we're using torpedoes, heavy naval guns and air strikes to take out these thieves. :roll:

 

Yes, they'll keep coming back for more - and to get it, will stop the stuff we want stopped. And if we've no money for that, how are we funding your air strikes, megaboats and bombs? Think about how much it would cost to live comfortably in Somalia for a year and multiply it by a million pirates and you've not even covered the cost of patrolling for a month. I'm not saying paying them is morally right - simply that it's the most direct and cost-effective solution.

 

My other suggestion is that we do nothing. It's not our territory, so we simply leave everyone to decide whether they go there knowing the risks or stay away. Course, that option also stops you boys playing with the really cool bath toys :lol:

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The other problem LP is that the pirates are going further and further out to sea in order to capture boats for ransom. Eventually they may show up in the Channel!! :lol:

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Well, given the amount of Naval assets that the international community now has in the area, I wouldn't think it would take long to eradicate pirate craft from the high seas; then some shock and awe along the coast, taking out every vessel from a canoe upwards - oops forgot, they'll have to spend five years discussing it, whilst wringing their hands - pathetic. :twisted:

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You certainly couldn?t do that without completely alienating the UK. But on the other hand we have a strong naval force to protect us and our interests on the high seas so what?s the point of having that if your not prepared to use it?

 

I say by all means threaten them with severe punishment if the piracy doesn?t stop and make it very clear why such action is needed. That way, the pressure on the pirates will be from the Somali population rather than a foreign power.

 

Bill :)

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The other problem LP is that the pirates are going further and further out to sea in order to capture boats for ransom. Eventually they may show up in the Channel!! :lol:

 

If they turn up there, tell them the French are wealthier! Now pirates in the Channel should get their boats holed - that's our water!

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You certainly couldn?t do that without completely alienating the UK. But on the other hand we have a strong naval force to protect us and our interests on the high seas so what?s the point of having that if your not prepared to use it?

 

I say by all means threaten them with severe punishment if the piracy doesn?t stop and make it very clear why such action is needed. That way, the pressure on the pirates will be from the Somali population rather than a foreign power.

 

Bill :)

 

Still got the problem that they have no other way to make a living. That's your real problem with these pirates. They are polite, reasonable and don't hurt anyone if it can be avoided, they negotiate and accept what can be afforded. This is a different kind of piracy from the usual kill/steal/plunder/no mercy stuff - it's blokes exploiting the only money source in sight.

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That's what a burglar would tell you! :wink:

 

Yeah, but in his case, living in the UK, with a benefit system, an education system, a health system and a reasonable number of jobs, he'd be lying. In Somalia, it really is piracy or starvation for a lot of people.

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So are you saying that Somalia are producing food, but are selling it to the rich countries? Or could it be, that they are not producing food due to political instability and corruption, or the production of ever more mouths in an area of finite resources - in which case the "starvation" is self inflicted. :?

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So are you saying that Somalia are producing food, but are selling it to the rich countries? Or could it be, that they are not producing food due to political instability and corruption, or the production of ever more mouths in an area of finite resources - in which case the "starvation" is self inflicted. :?

 

I'm not saying any of that - you're writing your own bedtime stories there. I'm saying that given their choice as individuals is polite hostage taking and negotiation or starving to death, I really don't think there is any threat that will work. What would you choose? Certain death by starvation or the risk of death by gunshot?

 

See, it's all very easy when you're sitting in your house on your well-fed bum with a doctor on hand in case of need. It's a bit grittier if you actually live in a destabilised state with nothing to your name and no future hope.

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They've got options: the easy one is to try to get to the UK under a truck - the harder one, requiring some bottle, is to remove the current corrupt leadership in these countries and create some stability . :roll:

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The piracy problem is increasing. A Chinese bulk carrier, the De Xin Hai 76,432 dwt, was seized 700 miles from Somalia by pirates who are threatening to kill the crew if their demands aren't met (which kind of contradicts LP's view of these people as cuddly family men just trying to scrape a living!). There have been more attacks in the first 9 months of 2009 than in the whole of last year, and the incidence of guns being used has increased by 200%. From January 1st to the end of September 114 vessels were boarded, 34 hijacked and 88 fired upon. A total of 661 crew members were taken hostage, 12 were kidnapped, 6 killed and 8 are missing. Not a happy picture is it? :shock::shock::shock::shock:

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The piracy problem is increasing. A Chinese bulk carrier, the De Xin Hai 76,432 dwt, was seized 700 miles from Somalia by pirates who are threatening to kill the crew if their demands aren't met (which kind of contradicts LP's view of these people as cuddly family men just trying to scrape a living!). There have been more attacks in the first 9 months of 2009 than in the whole of last year, and the incidence of guns being used has increased by 200%. From January 1st to the end of September 114 vessels were boarded, 34 hijacked and 88 fired upon. A total of 661 crew members were taken hostage, 12 were kidnapped, 6 killed and 8 are missing. Not a happy picture is it? :shock::shock::shock::shock:

 

No it's not - and let's have it straight, I never, ever condoned any of what they do or claimed they were cuddly. What I said was they have no alternative and THAT is the problem needing a solution in order to stop the piracy; as well as the reason threats and violence won't work. If piracy is increasing, all the more reason to find an alternative that does work.

 

And as for you Obs, if we can't get rid of MPs who cheat their expenses, how on earth is the destitute population of Somalia supposed to remove the government, avoid chaos and restructure the country? Which leaves your suggestion that all pirates move to the UK. Very open-hearted of you, but aren't we a bit overcrowded already in your view? :wink:

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Throughout history LP; populations that have been threatened with starvation through incompetant and corrupt governance have forcefully removed them - it's called revolution. :roll:

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Indeed it is - and it makes a complete mess of most things, usually ushering in a regime every bit as bad as the last one but in a different way. We call it a "general election" here in the west. :lol:

 

Until the Somalians have a revolution and rebuild afterwards, we are all still waiting for a solution to piracy. So if that's your new plan, it's fairly long term.....

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