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Wondering why pubs are closing?

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1402 in 2008 plus those during the current year plus those who have closed since the start of the smoking ban in 2006..Now, let's see...yep, in my book that's thousands. I was right. No *research* required, just the evidence of my own eyes.

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"Thousands" would require a figure over 2000 to even creep into being technically correct in the most nitpicking sense. Has that happened? No, of course you don't know - you just bang on talking smart.... to date, the closure figure is below 2000, according to BBPA. I rang them and asked. Perhaps you should have....

 

I am not saying there are no closures, and I am not saying the ban is not a factor at all. I am merely saying that if BBPA don't blame the ban for them all, or indeed for any of them, then you saying the ban has closed thousands of pubs is not accurate. It is in fact self-serving invention. The recession has closed many businesses in all sectors and comparatively, pubs are doing OK.

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Oh, and the ban came into force July 1st 2007, not 2006 - perhaps you didn't see that? Closure figure for 2006 was 216 and that was pre-ban, pre-recession, pre-inflation spike.

 

And BBPA say branded pubs and cafe-bars are OPENING at the rate of 2 a week at the moment. The biggest factor in closures, they say, was the spike in inflation that reduced drinkers' spending power. Changes to smoking and licencing laws were factors with varying impact and the recession is biting hard now, with closure rates going up this year amongst traditional boozers, because they only sell drink, no food and therefore are more vulnerable.

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Beagles were clamped by the neck with their faces in funnels blowing smoke all day. Their vocal cord were routinely cut so they made no noise. After a brief and miserable lifespan, they were killed and dissected. This went on for years and years and years.

 

Still think you're funny?

Not trying to be funny.

 

Without all these "cruel" practises, we wouldn't have learnt anything.

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Anyone got any idea why so many local pubs are closing these days then :shock::lol::wink:

 

PS LymmP... am I right in assuming that you don't like people who smoke :wink:

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No, this research on Beagles was carried out by the tobacco companies' bods and the results were manipulated to downplay the risks. The dogs died in droves to protect profits, not people. The tobacco companies did the research themselves to cover up the fact that smoking kills people in a variety of horrible ways. Governments let them carry on as long as the research statistics said the right things so they could claim ignorance later, if necessary.

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Anyone got any idea why so many local pubs are closing these days then :shock::lol::wink:

 

PS LymmP... am I right in assuming that you don't like people who smoke

:wink:

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I don't much like smoke, but I do like many people who smoke, and I respect their right to do so. If I go to their homes, or somewhere smoking is allowed, I don't object at all. Most smokers are perfectly reasonable about not smoking in public places now. I took issue with two things on this thread. Smokers who think they have more rights than anyone else; and the claims that the smoking ban ALONE closed huge numbers of pubs. That's all. The former are selfish and the latter is just silly.

 

If this thread was about banning smoking and making it a criminal offence to smoke in your own home, you'd find me objecting to that in the same way.

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The health facists havn't finished yet - ther's time for that one LP; think they'll be having a go at booze next, then move on to the obese. :wink:

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then move on to the obese. :wink:

 

Well as long as they do the beer first, I'll carry on with the peies for now!!

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Oh, and the ban came into force July 1st 2007, not 2006 - perhaps you didn't see that? Closure figure for 2006 was 216 and that was pre-ban, pre-recession, pre-inflation spike.

And BBPA say branded pubs and cafe-bars are OPENING at the rate of 2 a week at the moment. The biggest factor in closures, they say, was the spike in inflation that reduced drinkers' spending power. Changes to smoking and licencing laws were factors with varying impact and the recession is biting hard now, with closure rates going up this year amongst traditional boozers, because they only sell drink, no food and therefore are more vulnerable.

 

The smoking ban came into effect in 2006 in Scotland. Now, the last time I checked Scotland is in the UK. Once again I'm right. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

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Oh dear, another small-minded nitpicker. Fine - you can have your couple of bullet-ridden little red herrings there. Thousands of pubs have closed and the ban came into a part of the UK in 2006. Congratulations.

 

Now can we focus on the WHALE you are ignoring? Your statement was that the smoking ban is responsible for these closures. That is not true, according to the Association that represents pubs. If it was the truth, BBPA would be lobbying the Government for money to help pubs make the transition.

 

It's plain common sense. Inflation spiked, fuel prices went mad, everyone felt the pinch. So landlords had to pay more for beer/drinks, and more to run the pub. So prices at the pumps went up to preserve profit per pint/drink. So where someone was drinking, say, three pints for ?6, their spend became 2 pints for ?5. Mr Landlord is making the same profit per pint, but he's selling a third less. Profits drop by a third. Then we hit recession, and people are scared and cut back where they can. And of course, they can now take their fiver to a supermarket and get a lot more than 2 pints....

 

Compared to those hammer blows, the fact that a small number of smokers chose to stomp off is a fleabite. I accept it had an impact, I accept that for some pubs it was part of the mixture of factors that led to closure. All I object to is the ridiculous statement that moving the ashtrays outdoors has destroyed the industry - when even on your figures, the closure rate is obviously well below 5% and that's due to everything mentioned above in addition to the ban.

 

Now, if you want to fight the smoking ban, you should be looking at bingo halls, because there, you can't just nip out for a smoke or you'll miss the game. In Scotland especially, they are closing and the ban IS a big factor in that.

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Got to agree with a lot of that but my personal view is that the smoking ban has had a bigger impact than what many claim.

 

Take for example the well-documented case of the landlord of the Liverpool pub who decided to jump the gum and impose a no smoking policy a year before the ban came into effect. Within a matter of weeks he had to reverse his decision because his trade dropped to almost nothing.

 

In this case you can?t assign any blame on the economic climate or supermarket prices. The facts were smokers had an option and just moved out but unfortunately for the landlord, they were not replaced with none smokers.

 

Bill :)

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Got to agree with a lot of that but my personal view is that the smoking ban has had a bigger impact than what many claim.

 

Take for example the well-documented case of the landlord of the Liverpool pub who decided to jump the gum and impose a no smoking policy a year before the ban came into effect. Within a matter of weeks he had to reverse his decision because his trade dropped to almost nothing.

 

In this case you can?t assign any blame on the economic climate or supermarket prices. The facts were smokers had an option and just moved out but unfortunately for the landlord, they were not replaced with none smokers.

 

Bill :)

 

 

Absolutely agree with that. If you offer people a choice between a pub where they can smoke anywhere and a pub where they can't, then the smokers will ALL move on - and so will any group that includes smokers. Like most non-smokers, I used to sit in a smoky pub all night to socialise with my mates. If there were smoking pubs and they wanted to go there, it'd be the same now.

 

That's half the argument against having smoking/non-smoking pubs. Because the ban is ALL pubs, smokers largely remain loyal to their boozers. If your man above had been told that by law, his boozer was smoke-free and all the others weren't, then he WOULD have been forced out of business. Equally, you might find places where the smoking pub lost out when all the others were smoke-free. To be fair to all pubs, it has to be either smoking in all of them, or smoking in none.

 

Where a pub loses its smokers - and you posted this yourself - it's because they don't provide a decent smoking area and another nearby pub does. So, yes, that's a consequence of the ban, but it's because the landlord doesn't serve the needs of his customers.

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Or can?t provide one because there is just isn?t the space. Or not allowed to provide facilities because of planning laws.

 

The costs involved in providing decent outdoor facilities would probably have been just too much for those pubs that were already struggling to make any profit, especially the independents that don?t have the backing of some major chain.

 

The types of pubs that have gone this way were not really the sort of place I would visit so it no big loss to me. On the other side of the coin, such pubs were often focal points for local communities, especially the older and less mobile generation, and these are the real losers.

 

Quite sad when you think about it.

 

Bill :)

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Or can?t provide one because there is just isn?t the space. Or not allowed to provide facilities because of planning laws.

 

The costs involved in providing decent outdoor facilities would probably have been just too much for those pubs that were already struggling to make any profit, especially the independents that don?t have the backing of some major chain.

 

The types of pubs that have gone this way were not really the sort of place I would visit so it no big loss to me. On the other side of the coin, such pubs were often focal points for local communities, especially the older and less mobile generation, and these are the real losers.

 

Quite sad when you think about it.

 

Bill :)

 

Of course it's sad to lose small businesses. And maybe the ban was the last straw for pubs "already struggling" - but without wanting to sound harsh, if they were already struggling to make a profit back in 06/07, then their chances of surviving this recession were nil, ban or no ban. The most vulnerable are urban pubs that serve no food and have no smoking shelter (which doesn't necessarily require planning permission and needn't be expensive - a basic retractable awning and a patio heater would set you back less than ?1000 and be a tax deduction!). Vulnerable because there's competition nearby that makes more effort.

 

A business can only run if it serves the needs of customers AND there is enough demand. In every sector, a shrinking economy means less money to go round and the weakest don't make it. All kinds of businesses are closing their doors, and it's not because the typists can't smoke in the coffee lounge any more....

 

I love pubs, Bill and I'm doing my best to save as many as I can! It's a dirty job, all that drinking and eating puddings, but I know my duty! :lol::lol::lol:

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That?s not quite what I meant. Course nobody likes to see small business fail but where I was going was the effects on the community. Perhaps I?m getting too old thinking this way.

 

Take some old boozer like the Manx Arms on Brick Street, no space for anything, not even a car park. I?ve only been in the place once and it was quite full but mainly older people that probably lived within walking distance.

 

Now I don?t know why it closed down but in this instance, I suspect the smoking ban was a major factor because it certainly wasn?t short on customers. Net outcome though is that a local micro community is destroyed and although there?s other pubs nearby, it?s unlikely ever to be quite the same.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work and enjoy your pudding but give the smoked mackerel starter and the hickory smoked chicken a miss. :lol::lol:

 

Bill :)

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:lol::lol::lol: But Mackerel? Do you know what they eat? Suffice it to say they liked to shoal around the raw sewage outlets at sea...... Never mind smoking it, you could souse it in bleach and I'd still not partake!!

 

Poor old Manx Arms though.... whatever the reasons, it's a bit like watching the last of the dodos die. The only option though is for a community to get together and support it, and I assume they didn't... :(

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Doo doos and dodos both in the same post.

 

Don't ask me why I found it so amusing as I really have no idea :shock::lol::oops:

 

I do love smoked Mackerel though and if they have had a nibble on raw sewerage before they have been caught and smoked then all I can say is that it gives them a lovely flavour :D

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Mackerel are very tasty and good for you. :wink::wink:

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One man's meat is another man's poisson, as the French say! I won't eat liver or kidneys either, because they are basically there to filter out all the toxins and junk that gets into the system..... to me, that's not a good thing - and I don't eat tripe because it's quicker and tastier to buy a cheap rubber bathmat and slice it up!! :lol:

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Good of you to admit it LP :lol::lol::lol:

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