asperity Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 NI wa introduced to fund exactly this sort of thing - health and welfare; the problem with it, is that it currently has an upper contribution limit. Are you mad Obs!!!! NI was introduced as another form of income tax. There was never a snowballs chance in hell that it was going to insure people's health and welfare and well you know it. It is, as I said, a giant Ponzi scheme where the investors are never going to see any return on the investment. If the same money had been invested in private insurance plans then the results would have been more favourable but instead the government has put it all in one big pot and spent it willy nilly (all same road tax). You are are dreamer if you think that any scheme dreamed up by any politiocian is going to come out with a favourable result for the population! Cynical? Moi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 so when i retire at 60/65/70 or whatever the age may be by then. i pay ?8000 and if i then need a nursing home or some such it is paid for. question is say i pay the money and twelve months later turn up my toes without going into a home or such. do i get a refund and how do i claim it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 No pockets in a shroud Sid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 What's all this "ponzi" buisiness; of course NI is a "tax", so what? As long as it based on the principle of "from each according to their means", I've no probs with it; and if that means one isn't mugged to the tune of ?8,000 at 65 for a service one may or may not receive; that's fine with me. btw if you believe for one second, that the Tories will develope policies that are altrustic, tis you who are mad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment scheme where investors are paid dividends on their investments that appear to be very attractive. However the dividends aren't from profits made by the money being invested but are actually funded by later investors. Bernie Madoff's scheme was a Ponzi scheme and was very successful until it all collapsed. Such is our NI scheme. Welfare and pensions aren't paid from the profits made by investing our NI contributions. If these contributions were paid into a private pension fund we would all be better off (or at least those of us who have been paying our contributions all our lives!!) You can quote your socialist ideals until you're blue (or red) in the face but it won't make them realistic. And I've no hope at all that Call me Dave will have a clue how to reform our welfare state either. Perhaps we do need the EUSSR to take over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Nowt wrong with those who have, helping to pay for those who haven't. As for all the workshy layabouts claiming benefits, by all means get them to work and pay their taxes but the amount they fiddle is peanuts compared to how much the super rich manage to fiddle. BTW does that mean that a couple would be expected to pay ?16000 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Eh Asp; think you'll find most public sector pension schemes work like that: money isn't invested - just swills around the budget - and becomes a liability when folk live too long! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 And that makes it right does it Obs? If the public finances were properly managed in the way that private companies manage theirs (they have to otherwise they go bust) perhaps we wouldn't be having problems looking after our OAPs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Don't see your problem with it: if you support the idea of folk saving through a private insurance scheme for their dotage; what's wrong with ensuring everyone saves via NI? Fact is; most public sector retirees enjoy a pension cos they HAD to join the scheme when they joined the job; most folk left to their own resources don't even think about pensions when they're young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The problem is that the NI scheme isn't a scheme at all. The money isn't invested, it just goes into the general taxation pot which the government of the day then wastes. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of government to ensure that everybody puts part of their salary towards a properly funded pension fund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Pension funds, are worthless Asperity, and most private companies are stopping final salary pensions as they can not afford them. Pension funds no longer work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hang on a mo Asp: private saving/pension schemes are invested in the stock market, and managed by so-called responsible managers - (until the crash exposed them) - and as we know, shares can go up as well as down. The Government (IE tax-payer) is lender of last resort in any case, bailing out the banks etc; so what's the problem with them having to honour pension payments, regardless of where the money is coming from? Private Insurance schemes will only be taken on by the thrifty and far-sighted; leaving the feckless to get benefits for free in their dotage. A public scheme at least provides a chance of getting more folk to exercise thrift - whether they like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Pension funds, are worthless Asperity, and most private companies are stopping final salary pensions as they can not afford them. Pension funds no longer work Talking through your backside as usual LtKije. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hang on a mo Asp: private saving/pension schemes are invested in the stock market, and managed by so-called responsible managers - (until the crash exposed them) - and as we know, shares can go up as well as down. The Government (IE tax-payer) is lender of last resort in any case, bailing out the banks etc; so what's the problem with them having to honour pension payments, regardless of where the money is coming from? Private Insurance schemes will only be taken on by the thrifty and far-sighted; leaving the feckless to get benefits for free in their dotage. A public scheme at least provides a chance of getting more folk to exercise thrift - whether they like it or not. Private pension schemes were working very well in this country until a certain Mr Gordon "Prudence" Brown decided that he would rob them blind to fund his social engineering schemes. The stock market admittedly goes up and down but, historically, it goes upward over time and so private pensions were a good hedge against old age. As for the state pension, can you honestly say that these have ever been adequate? And why should the tax payer who has tried to save for his old age be penalised by the government because of some perceived "social justice" that says someone who hasn't bothered saving should have the same benefits as someone who has? Government should do what they do best - nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithR Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Private Pension schemes have never worked very well. Some people paid up to 90 per cent of their first year's premium in commission costs, They sometimes lost up to a quarter of their contributions over the lifetime of a policy and personal pension charges of 20 per cent were common and this was long before Gordon robbed the pension funds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Many "private" schemes have ended in disaster for the workforce, when firms have taken contribution holidays or just gone bust. Asp: the whole point in a State Managed Scheme is to include (compel) as many folk as possible to contribute into an insurance/pension scheme; private provision tends to be taken up only by the thrifty, and allows the feckless to avoid making any provision for their old age - thus we get the injustice of them being looked after despite their lack of contributions. I listened intently to some Tory think tank folk at their Conference; and the prognosis is that ALL benefits will be reduced, with means testing extended - thus the "middle classes" are in for a shock - with less or no child allowance, maternity allowances etc - so folk need to be carefull who they are going to vote for! The problem of course with means testing is: that if your well off fine, if you've got nowt you get looked after; but if you fall between the two and just earn or have saved that little bit extra, you finish up in a trough of poverty - so the incentive remains to be rich or feckless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 and the prognosis is that ALL benefits will be reduced Alas that is what happens when the money runs out. As I said in another post, when we discuss benefit payments etc, do we ask the Chinese what they think and for their approval, as they are afterall the ones who we are borrowing the money off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 The problem for all Parties is, who will lose out - the middle classes used to vote Tory! Polling evidence suggests that, far from being enamoured with the Tories, current voting intentions are coloured by an anti-new Labour sentiment. When the details start to emerge as to who are to suffer the burden of the coming pain, I guess folk may prefer the devil they know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 I will repeat asperity Private pension schemes have never worked, what planet are you from, and are you one of the few that still has a final salary system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 I will repeat asperity Private pension schemes have never worked, what planet are you from, and are you one of the few that still has a final salary system Thankfully I'm not from the same planet as you are LtKije. I'm not in a final salary scheme, never had one, but I do have private pension funds because I will need to retire one day. What are you going to do? Expect the state to keep you in your dotage (perhaps you already are in your dotage, that would explain all the garbage dribbling from you! )? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifles Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Years ago my father told my sister, brothers and i to forget putting our money into a private pension as in his words " there not worth shit!" and to put our money into property. He wisely told us that property prices will be a rollercoaster over the years but eventually there is no safer place than bricks and mortar. Like a dumb ass i was the only one out of the lot of us who never did it. The rest bought terraced houses from between 12-18k...so not a bad return even in todays climate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Years ago my father told my sister, brothers and i to forget putting our money into a private pension as in his words " there not worth shit!" and to put our money into property. Your father is a very wise man Rifles. There are a few ways to make real money but a private pension isn't one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Boy George (Osborn's) attempt at a Churchillian "blood, sweat and tears" speech was indeed a political gamble. However, Churchill promised hardship to a generation that had already lived through hardship in the 30s, so perhaps had the capacity to bare the pain. Unfortunately, for Boy George to promise pain to a society that has been drunk on affluence, has never heard the word "NO"; and still believes it has a right to have what they want NOW - could prove a fickle audience for such home truths. Despite his attempt at candour, Dave's Boy understated the scale of the deficit, and the scale of the required remedy. The problem is, will/can voters accept the level of masochism required with their vote? The fight will now be about the detail, and how the pain can be limited to 49% of the electorate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Your father is a very wise man Rifles. There are a few ways to make real money but a private pension isn't one of them. Do you think we should tell asperity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Don't bother, your opinion isn't worth the reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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