Father Jack Hackett Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you feel I'm mindless not wanting to pay for everyone elses medical bills, many of whom do not contritute but who are a massive drain on resources Try that statement again when you have cancer...and your insurance will not pay up for some small print qualifier or you are too old to be insured at cost that is commensurate with your pension. What do you want a means test for the deserving (let me guess, that you are the top of your own list). What qualifies as a massive drain on resources?...when you have stroke?...when you are 86 and filling your own nappies? The principles of a welfare state are well founded. In the bad times when someone scrubs your job, repossesses your home and your 5 series you still get the care you deserve. Are you seriously advocating we leave people to die because YOU think they are undeserving. Malthus and the guy with the toothbrush tash would be proud to have you on their team...does that make you deserving. You have got a bad case of Tony and Gords liberal malthusian dilemma. Hope you are insured against it. The symptoms are assuming everyone but yourself is taking the P*** (which is probably true in Tony and Gords case) the common term is acute middle class paranoia. Killing off all those who are less fortunate than yourself has the nasty side effect of eventually placing you at the bottom of the pile....where guess what...YOU become the sponge on society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Excellent post Father J, be careful you will be accused of upsetting your fellow posters and supporting Man U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You just beat me to it Eagle in congratulating Father Jack on an excellent post. Unfortunately when it comes to the NHS, the short term benefit of opting out during the healthy years would soon revert to opting back in when ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzodog Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You see Tilly, it's like how until a couple of years ago, any comment on immigration other than saying we should have open borders was condemned as evil racism. So now any coment on the NHS other than saying it's underfunded is equally condemned. Suggesting that folk might care to make provision for themselves brings accusations that you want to kill off people. It would be funny until you realise these people are allowed to vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Malthus and the guy with the toothbrush tash would be proud to have you on their team... ....and that is exactly why this country is going to the dogs. Someone dares to suggest that people should stand on their own two feet and take responsibility for their own situation, and they get accused of being a fascist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Beat me to it Bonzo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Jack Hackett Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Suggesting that folk might care to make provision for themselves brings accusations that you want to kill off people. It would be funny until you realise these people are allowed to vote Thank you for 'allowing' me to vote. It is hilarious that I should feel for those less fortunate, I know. but if missing the point is the qualifier for the vote you most certainly will get your way. If you feel I'm mindless not wanting to pay for everyone elses medical bills, many of whom do not contritute but who are a massive drain on resources Which bit of that statement do you get "suggesting that folk might care to make provision for themselves" from? You can pay for yourself you know...do you? As to my 'accusing' people of any political leaning please provide suggestions for a political model that refuses to provide care for people because of their social standing (for which I assume death would be inevitable) and I will gladly use it in order to side step your sensitivities. I can think of a couple..Stalinist, American dream etc. But since they all use Malthus as the solution I do not see it makes my original statement less valid. I am curious to know how much you pay to care for yourself. How much is your premium, are you aged, are you in a low payed job, do you have a disability or hereditary disease because I am curious as to where you get your cover if you experience any of the aforesaid...Bupa...I think not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Bupa, Prudential et al were not set up to provide long term care or old age. They were set up primarily to allow those who wanted to pay (of whom I am one at the moment) to get faster treatment than that available on the NHS. I pay for my cover because I can't afford to be off work with an affliction that is operable or cureable, whilst waiting for a space to become available on the NHS. To that end, I have used it a couple of times to great effect. I don't however subscribe to the theory that I should therefore have reduced or no national insurance taken from me. FJH mentions stroke victims; my mum had a stroke almost a year ago now and I have come to realise just what an asset to this country the NHS actually is. She is 86 and has been looked after magnificently from the paramedics that came out on the day through the hospital and the stroke ward, on to Padgate House for some rehab and finally back in her own home and visited by carers twice a day who help to maintain her independance. Private medical insurance would not even contemplate covering those things unless the premiums were in the hundreds of pounds a month...... Be thankful for what we have got because we all may have to use it at some stage in our futures! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Jack, if you'd care to read my posts in this thread you'd see that I've already said that I, personally, wouldn't choose to opt out of the NHS - while I believe it has great scope for improvement I think it still represents reasonable value for money. What I do object to is being forced to pay for services that I'll never use - services often designed specifically for the benefit of the lazy or feckless - for the simple reason that I've worked hard for many years, I've made sacrifices and denied myself things, all in order to ensure that I've provided for my own needs in ANY conceivable future circumstances. There are very few in the UK "less fortunate" than anyone else, anyone who starts out with two arms, two legs and a functioning brain is capable of working and earning a living. Maybe some will have more success in life than others, maybe some will be able to afford to support big families, be by their efforts able to afford to do all the things they want to do - that's just the way it is, we can't all be Richard Bransons. The welfare state was only ever designed as a safety net, not as a way of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I am reminded of work where the laziest people did the most shouting. Could it be that those shooting down Tilly are the biggest NHS users? And the same people no doubt wonder where their car tax gets spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Peter, I am fortunate in that I have never needed the services of a hospital whether it be private or NHS, so apart from you constantly defending Tilly of which she seems more than capable of doing so herself, I am unsure as to what point you are trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Wolfie, I am pleased that you are in good health, but whilst it might look as if I am defending Tilly, (and yes she did get ganged up on), I feel that her whole post is being ignored as everyone jumps on her NHS comment. Don't "you" think that we should know where are money is spent/wasted in halls of power? If the people don't start to ask the questions, it gives those in office "carte-blanche" to do what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithR Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 While not trying to be accused of being 'one of the gang' I must support those posters who have zeroed in on the NHS comment. Most posters and people generally would want to know where there taxes are being spent and on what, and I fully support that view, but Tilly quite clearly stated PS - if I had a choice I'd like to opt out of the NHS and pay as I go which as someone already stated is quite a selfish view in that it is ignoring the whole concept of the welfare state. I am fortunate in that the company I work for provides Private Health Insurance, unfortunately conditions that I had previous to that employment are not covered and there is also a financial limit on any new conditions. Once that financial limit has been met I would then have to rely on the NHS who I would hope have not taken the decision to opt out of treating me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Tilly only got "ganged up on " because she made a totally crass selfish statement. It is a NATIONAL Health Service which despite it faults treats all people who are ill. Tilly would like to opt out until such time as she needs it and then opt back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Tilly only got "ganged up on " because she made a totally crass selfish statement. It is a NATIONAL Health Service which despite it faults treats all people who are ill. Tilly would like to opt out until such time as she needs it and then opt back in. Oh, yes, of course, read back, that is exactly NOT what I said. Any way as I said earlier I respect your views, values and comments just as much as you do mine, see y'all, you've all sooooo got your knickers in a twist about this, it's quite good fun watching / reading all your comments and you all getting worked up and arguing, whats the matter with you all, do you get like this in real life or just on the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I am reminded of work where the laziest people did the most shouting. Could it be that those shooting down Tilly are the biggest NHS users? And the same people no doubt wonder where their car tax gets spent. Love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithR Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 What a mindless response, are you really as dim as you come across or are you just targetting me and knocking my posts for fun? ........... Just remind us again who it is that's getting worked up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Tilly only got "ganged up on " because she made a totally crass selfish statement. It is a NATIONAL Health Service which despite it faults treats all people who are ill. Tilly would like to opt out until such time as she needs it and then opt back in. I used to say exactly the same when I was working, as I was paying (to me) a fortune for something I didn't use. I was willing to pay insurance for healthcare. What we should also remember that the money that is paid in now, isn't necessarily going to be used for the NHS.given that this G'ment if in power, could well privatise the NHS. There was a comment earlier about it being available for the less well off. Yes, that is what it is supposed to be for, yet do you also agree that it's ok for people to come over here on "holiday" and have treatment at no cost from overseas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Of course I don't agree with foreign holiday makers coming over here and getting free treatment but it is nowt to do with the current 'debate'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzodog Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Of course I don't agree with foreign holiday makers coming over here and getting free treatment but it is nowt to do with the current 'debate'. Of course it is to do with the debate. Tilly started off by saying that we should know what our taxes are being used for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Yes Tilly did start off with commenting that we should know where our taxes are going but the thread had meandered away from that to a discussion on the NHS, Peter wished to narrow it down to the "foreigner issue" which I think was a red herring to protect Tilly from further hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Yes Tilly did start off with commenting that we should know where our taxes are going but the thread had meandered away from that to a discussion on the NHS, Peter wished to narrow it down to the "foreigner issue" which I think was a red herring to protect Tilly from further hassle. Selective quoting Eagle? At least you gave me a laugh re. the red herring. LOL It was no such thing. It was pointing out that the NHS was for everyone entitled to and/or pays in to. An earlier comment suggested that the poor would be dis-enfranchised by people "opting" out. the fact that people do come to this country to abuse the system must have a knock-on affect, and mean that the pot does not go as far. PS. I don't do meandering on a Tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyG Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 So the answer is not to 'opt out' but make those who are not entitled pay through the nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Jack Hackett Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I am reminded of work where the laziest people did the most shouting. Could it be that those shooting down Tilly are the biggest NHS users? Are you sure you are responding to the correct thread. What in the name of.....are you on about. Is it a puzzle where I have to rearrange the words to get the message. Are ill people lazy in your view of the world. Ah...did you work in Human Resources counting sickies maybe? What is a big NHS user? Anyone who needs more care than your fortunate self maybe...next time I see a twitching net curtain I will give you a wave. Shouting on a forum is indicated by caps anything else is discussion and opinion. That is why it is called a discussion forum otherwise we would not be discussing our opposing views and it would be called a keep your views to yourself forum. If I am ILL I dont get paid....I cannot afford to be ill or lazy. So your theory is a bit leaky...sieve comes to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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