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Protectionism?


observer

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So Paul are you for protectionism or not :?:

 

If you are how far would you go :?:

 

I see that now that you cannot defend your corner against my evidence and arguments against Europe and their cheap labour workforces taking higher paid UK jobs; you are turning it into a semi-personal attack on Paul and his party.

 

The Conservatives have been out of power for 12 long years and we have been in the hands of the Nu labour idiots since. Why didn't the Labour government re-open the precious coal mines? Maybe they weren't economical enough perhaps?

 

Labour have been blaming the Tories for as long as they could get away with it and are now blaming the "worldwide economic downturn" (If we are in Europe, why didn't this shield us from it eh? all these like minded countries looking after each other?) TOSH Brown has now started balming something else for his incompetance and short-comings. Labour had ample opportunity to reverse some of the Tory policies they continue to moan about (Obama has wasted no time in turning round a raft of Bush's laws and policies) Labour and Labour alone are to blame for this mess; no one else

 

After all, most of the tory MP's weren't even around when Maggie was doing what she did so how can you blame them? Some things never change, Labour will always be about handing money to the feckless and the workshy and employing as many public sector people as they can, then the Tories come along and have to sort out the mess they create. How are we supposed to pay for all of this national debt we are being saddled with? How do we continue to pay all of these gold plated public pensions when they retire (well we all know that the rest of us have to work longer to pay for them)

 

It is a sham, we have been dragged into a full scale federal Europe without so much as a question being asked of the people, despite Brown and Bliars promises (change a few words and call it something else and the oiks will never know).... well now we know what Europe is all about; screwing GB for contirbutions far far in excess of what we can ever hope to get back, allowing cheap labour to come over here by some carefully instigated loopholes and show me one bloody benefit we get from it all that is worth all that?

 

We need to open our eyes and fast in this country before we give absolutely everything away to the power mad, money grabbing and wasting Euro parliament.

 

Baz. Good post.

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Baz would your protectionism have protected the Miners and British Leyland how far does it go :?: British Leyland went under because they made crap expensive cars, Jonney foreigner made cheaper better cars, British coal cost more than Polish coal, they could not compete, so good british jobs went.

 

Paul

 

As your party were against the minimum wage, Would you count this tender process that Total have gone though as more evidence that it does not work :?:

 

Of course it wouldn't have protected British Leyland or the miners. It was the workers themselves that killed off their own jobs. Arthur Scargill and Red Ken did a fair bit of damage without the intervention of Maggie et al. Not all Bristish Leyland cars were crap though, I worked at Howley Racing in the 80's and it was amazing what those lads could do with a Metro!

 

If as you state; that Johnny Foreigner made better cheaper cars, how come some of the most efficient and productive car plants in the world are now in the UK? Granted they are owned by Nissan, so good British jobs were recreated. The danger now lies in the loophole that Total are exoploiting in using a foreign firm using foreign labour paid the rates of pay in their countries; not ours.

 

That isn't right surely? and if you want an answer to your question to Paul about the minimum wage; I would say yes it is evidence that the minimum wage isn't working here if someone else from Europe can come over and work here for less than a British employer can legally pay for a British worker. The minimum wage has now been seen as a restrictive burden to employing British workers...... would you say it has been a sucess?

 

Look at all the nonsense advertising this sham of a government have produced over the last couple of years; featuring the restaraunt owner getting caught paying less than the legal rate and being prosecuted for it. Then you have the Prime Minister waffling on in some semi-incoherrent scottish ramble about "British Jobs for British Workers" and now we get that big fairy Mandy Mandelson saying that there isn't anything we can do actually because in Europe we have to do what we are told now......

 

Bloody nonsense. This government have sold this bloody country down the river and we are now the laughing stock of the world. A soft touch for every two bit asylum seeking sob story while all around us, the rest of Europe are handing out guide maps to Calais to get rid of them as fast as they can.

 

Personally I would rather Lib Dems got into number 10 than Brown and his lying thieving bunch of scum.....

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Baz

 

Nice job on changing history, The miners went on strike because the mines were going to shut. The strike did not cause the mines to shut they were shutting any way, Britain could buy coal cheaper from abroad than it could from British mines.

 

So I will ask again how far would your protectionism go, would you keep British factories open, to protect British jobs or would you let the people of the UK buy the cheaper product which happens to be made in Portugal where they have cheaper wages, so they have cheaper overheads :?:

 

How far would you go :?:

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Baz

 

Nice job on changing history, The miners went on strike because the mines were going to shut. The strike did not cause the mines to shut they were shutting any way, Britain could buy coal cheaper from abroad than it could from British mines.

:

 

The miners were the cause of shutting the mines due to their excessive demands and lack of effort.

It was typical of the Unions of the day, to screw the companies/taxpayers for outrageous demands in wages and conditions, thus pricing themselves out of a job.

Scargill was on a crusade to bring the Tory Government down no matter who he hurt or how many jobs he lost.

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Now here's where Baz and I part company; to advocate jumping out of the frying pan into the fire by voting Tory, is an indicator of why we're in this mess. :roll: NONE of the three main Parties are committed to extracting us from the EU, in fact both Tories and Labour signed us deeper into it. :twisted: The reason Maggie closed the mines was to destroy the NUM and the power of organised labour in this country (aided by the squandering of North Sea oil revenues on dole and incapacity benefits), and much of our manufacturing base with it, and our subsequent reliance on the finance and service sector, and cheap imports - well that's all blown up in our faces now. :roll: As for not subsidising BRITISH Leyland, well the Tories did (under Heath?) nationalise Rolls-Royce temporalily; but stange how it's now become fashionable to save the private sector with tax-payers money - political expediency rules! :wink: The next Euro election will be interesting; as it operates on a PR system, it would seem UKIP and BNP have an excellent chance, providing the moaners put their vote where their mouths are! :wink:

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Observer

 

I agree with most of what you say, Maggie picked a fight and won the fight with the miners, Arthur's big mistake was not to call a vote on the strike. But it is also a fact that the miners went on strike to protect there jobs from cheap foreign coal, that the UK is still importing to this day.

 

When you start on the protectionist route that many are advocating on here its a slippery slope and might end up in tit for tat retaliatory actions from other countries, that is why I keep asking how far would people go. Maggie started are reliance on the service sector, e.g. banking, Labour in there infinite wisdom did nothing to redress the balance, as I suspect they were making or getting payed off from that sector. It appears that are government is only now learning what every common person from what ever political pole new, To come though a recession you need a decent service sector and a decent manufacturing sector,. The UK has neither, And will suffer greatly for it

 

Getting back to the Total problem, I heard on the news today that the contract was signed 3 years ago, when there was no unemployment problem. Seems to me that total should have had the work done straight away.

 

If the foreign workers are getting the minimum wage for there country this is plainly wrong, they should get the minimum wage for the country they are working in. The loop hole should be closed.

 

I hope you are wrong about UKIP and the BNP, these parties just prey on peoples fears :!:

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For enviromental reasons alone, it makes sense to minimise global traffic movements of people and goods; and to move the point of production as close as possible to the points of consumption. :shock: Trade is a nebulous concept; it's origins were based on the exchange of goods that couldn't be produced locally; we had a reciprocal arrangement with the Commonwealth where food and raw materials were imported and converted into finished products for export. :? Then we entered the EU club, with our biggest competitors, who's real intent was to create a super-State to compete with the US, and part of the price has been that we have had to bail out the economies of every new poverty stricken member. :twisted: btw. Maggie de-industrialised the UK, and de-manned our public services, and we've seen the consequence now. :cry:

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Funny how we've had no protest about foreign workers taking British jobs in the hotel industry!

Hoteliers are crying out for British staff - but can only get Eastern Europeans. Who actually do the job very well. The British apparently prefer the dole.

Do we have some kind of British arrogance here - "I'm not taking a job waiting on people - I'm too good for that"?

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Funny how we've had no protest about foreign workers taking British jobs in the hotel industry!

Hoteliers are crying out for British staff - but can only get Eastern Europeans. Who actually do the job very well. The British apparently prefer the dole.

Do we have some kind of British arrogance here - "I'm not taking a job waiting on people - I'm too good for that"?

 

An interesting point. On the politics show they were interviewing a woman who had sadly lost her job, but wasn't prepared to take a lower paid one....as she had a mortgage and other expenses to meet each month....from which I assumed she meant that the benefit system....paid for by taxpayers like me who have seen our income / wealth decimated in recent months, would pay her bills whilst she sat at home. One lives in hope that an incoming Conservative Government will be sorting that anomoly out.

 

Personally I have no problems with people not working....provided they don't join the queue labelled, handouts.

 

You make a very good point about Eastern Europeans working in hotels, and doing a good job, many with great charm.

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Might help if you viewed the BNP website to see what the BNP policies are before jumping on the bandwagon of suppression: 1) Yes - they argue for "seperate racial development or segregation", but so do the three main Parties with their pandering to a "multi-cultural society" - so little difference there! :roll: 2) But the key policy is withdrawal from the EU - which alone is worth a protest vote - and if they do well in the Euro Elections; just watch for the policy sumersaults in the main Parties! :wink: De-industrialisation, de-manning and privatisations were instruments of social engineering employed by Thatcher to destroy organised labour once and for all, and the cost (over 3 million unemployed) was funded by North Sea oil revenues - now the chicken have come home to roost! :roll::wink:

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But the key policy is withdrawal from the EU - which alone is worth a protest vote
:shock::shock::shock::shock:

 

If you do not agree with the EU, vote UKIP or Conservative non of which preach hate or intolerance, The BNP are a reorganized National Front, You will find if you go to any of there meetings Skin heads and Bully boys and hate. We fought a war against people with similar views. :!::!::!::evil:

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The following from the Conservative website:

 

"We believe in an open, flexible Europe in which countries work together to achieve shared goals, not the ever greater centralisation of power in Brussels.

 

We believe that in democracies nothing lasting can be built without the people?s consent. But people have been denied their say on the renamed EU Constitution.

 

So if the Lisbon Treaty is not yet in force at the time of the next general election and a Conservative Government is elected we would put the Treaty to a referendum of the British people, recommending a ?no? vote. If the British people rejected the Treaty, we would withdraw Britain?s ratification of it.

 

But if the Treaty is in force we will be in a different situation. In our view, then, political integration would have gone too far and the Treaty would lack democratic legitimacy in this country and we would not let matters rest there."

 

 

Withdrawal from the EU is not currently a Conservative policy.

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Not in the EU form of democracy.... you know the one; the one where they say that if one country votes against the treaty it will be scrapped and then when one does (Ireland) they all flap about and order Ireland to re do the vote again (and probably again and again) until the EU get the result they want.

 

That sort of democracy :lol:

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