Lt Kije Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Just had to pick you up on this one Paul One in nine hospital patients picks up an infection during their stay on a ward, while the total cost of outstanding claims against the NHS is ?9.2 billion, Dr Butler claimed. If the Tories were still in and spending at the rates they were spending on the NHS it would probably seven in nine, Your party are not known for investing in the NHS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Are you suggesting that Labour do and that it reaches the wards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 I am suggesting nothing, I am stating that the NHS is better looked after under Labour, You get a better NHS under a Labour government than you would under a Tory one. Yes there is alot of wasted money, but you are not seriously going to tell me we had a better health service under the Tories are you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Still spouting claptrap Ltkije It's impossible to say what shape the NHS would be in under a Tory government as it hasn't happened (unless you believe that we've had a Tory government for the last 12 years as Obs does, in which case the arguement would be academical anyway. ) What is certain is that we wouldn't have had Prudence Brown wasting the country's wealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 In fairness Labour did say that they would spend more of our money on the NHS, and indeed they have, it has gone from about ?34 billion in 1997 to about ?111 billion now, three times the amount. The NHS has improved...but has it improved threefold. Does expenditure of ?111,000,000,000 represent good value for money. How is it that a privately run hospital (Spire, Whalley Range, Manchester) and paid the NHS rate for the treatment, can offer NHS patients a far better standard of service...and even rather nice meals included than a local NHS hospital.....makes you think. Alas the NHS, great as I think it is, has become an uncontrolled cash consuming bureaucracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 ..... headed by unelected, faceless, but well paid folk sitting on the Quangos, originally set up by the last Tory Gov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Still spouting claptrap Lt kije Got it wrong again asperity Can I suggest putting your brain in gear before replying again You could also check some facts first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 ..... headed by unelected, faceless, but well paid folk sitting on the Quangos, originally set up by the last Tory Gov. But not amended, altered or scrapped by your lot either Obs.... remember that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 That's just another reason why, they are not "my lot" Baz - as I've said umpteen times, they are Tories in Labour clothing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Still spouting claptrap Lt kije Got it wrong again asperity Can I suggest putting your brain in gear before replying again You could also check some facts first And yet again spouting claptrap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 That's just another reason why, they are not "my lot" Baz - as I've said umpteen times, they are Tories in Labour clothing! But they are your lot Obs. They are the Labour Party. They have a red rose (allbeit a little withered now...) "things can only get better" and all that.... Just because they aren't brown nosing the unions doesn't make them tories.... there are still a lot of the old guard left, they just choose to keep quiet and take the money... along with some handy tips from Woodward on choosing your next Bentley etc!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Again you've given even more reason why they ain't "my lot" - that's the problem you have with trying to type cast folk - read what I advocate, and you won't find much of it in any of the three main Party manifestos - so sorry, you can't pin a rosette to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 There is a witty retort.... but I couldn't possibly use it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted March 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Or how to woo and wed a member of the Sainsbury family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Asperity Are you saying The Tories have a better track record when it comes to the NHS Yes or No Answer very carefully, I think we will find out who is talking claptrap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 LT, you are missing the point somewhat. The Tories have not been in power for a long time whereas Labour have and have poured billions and billions of taxpayers cash into the NHS. A lot of the increases go on pay rises and pensions and managers (something which is a recent phenomenon) and so trying to compare what Labour have done with what the Tories would have done is irrelavent. The tories may well have kept the funding down which in turn may have lead to less tiers of management (Good or bad?) We will only know what will happen when Dave gets into power and Gordon bogs off back to Jockland next year.... reducing funding to the NHS won't necesarily mean worse treatment; especially if the cut the funding to paying for foreigners to have care here or having ridiculous situations of having sex changes (like the John Terry lookalike) funded by the NHS. Even IVF is something that should be very carefully funded by the NHS and not given out willy nilly. There are millions of pounds of waste that can be kerbed so lets take that as a starting point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Not missing the point at all, under the last few Tory regemes the NHS nearly collapsed, Labour had to pour millions into it it was in that bad a estate, I am not saying that some of the money was not wasted it was, but they did put it back on track, though it is still along way behind France and Germany Asperity has dug is own hole I want to see how he gets out. I think he was a bit quick at having a go at me and was not to concerned about what he wrote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted March 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Remember the French system is not free at the point of delivery. The French healthcare system is funded by those in work, who pay 20% of their salary into the French social security system, most of which is used to fund healthcare. In Germany there is not a "free" healthcare system it is either paid for by the user, when they use it, or by their health insurer. I think it is a highly decentralised system with many hospitals being run by churches with the help of state and federal financial support. I think I'm right in saying that the NHS is a unique system, which has a budget this year of about ?111 billion. As it always said, "you pays your money and takes your choice" Spending on the NHS has tripled since 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Still spouting claptrap Ltkije It's impossible to say what shape the NHS would be in under a Tory government as it hasn't happened (unless you believe that we've had a Tory government for the last 12 years as Obs does, in which case the arguement would be academical anyway. ) What is certain is that we wouldn't have had Prudence Brown wasting the country's wealth. I am repeating the above post for the benefit of LtKije so he can see what I said. The Labour party has been in government for the last 12 years, not the Tories so trying to guess what a Tory government would or wouldn't have done in that time is an impossibility. It's like trying to guess what state the country would be in had Kinnochio beaten Major. Keep up the claptrap LtKije Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Repeating my question again for the benefit of Asperity Do you think the Tories have a better track record when it comes to the NHS Yes or No In your own time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 http://tinyurl.com/df5c5o For the benefit of LtKije, the result of 12 years of Labour running the NHS And not from the DT but from one of your favoured news outlets the BBC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Are you going to answer the question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 To be honest I believe that all the problems of the NHS stem from government interference rather than which party is in power. A very good idea has been ruined by successive governments since its inception. To put you out of your misery I will say that if the Tories had been in power they wouldn't have put nearly as much money into the NHS, but what is to say that would have been a bad thing. What the NHS needs is root and branch reform, getting rid of the waste and putting the resources back into patient care. For your information LtKije, I am not, and never have been, a member or supporter of any political party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 The world is getting smaller Asperity, I agree 100% with your last post I to am not a member of any political party, although I am probably closer to the Lib dems because of there pro European stance than any other party, but I dislike some of there policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 We have developed a system of collating outputs, through the production of "targets", for which staff merely find ways of circumventing, often due to there impractical and unrealistic nature, in the light of finite budgetry limitations. The reason for such "tick box" management, is solely to provide stats for Government to claim successes or for the opposition to claim failiure, during each 5 yearly bout in the Commons. It's about politicians getting elected or re-elected, hence it's myopic nature; woe betide the politician who dares to look 10 or 20 years into the future for sustainable solutions to systemic failiures in our institutions, Joe Public (like footy fans) has only a fleeting concentration span and requires instant solutions to everything - hence the pressures on politicians to give the kids their sweets. What is required, is a National Inspectorate to take an overview of performance, working with local management and user groups to identify failings and correct them; plus, a Government (and tax-payers)prepared to resource where and when necessary. We also need a "conversation" about the NHS, it's mission and purpose in the context od just how much we are prepared to pay: and IF this results in limits on the parameters of operation - so be it. EG: Should the NHS be spending money on IVF treatment, especially for Lesbians; or for the repair of bodged up cosmetic surgery by the private sector; or the payment of ?billions in compensation claims due to vexatious litigations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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