Paganism

[Man in Black]

I've had enough of this unremitting judgemental abuse from Goonerman. I can't believe he's been allowed to get away with pages and pages of ranting gobbledygook, religious predudice and insults !!! I have not made ANY direct judgements against him. I actually thought he was having a laugh at first - evidently not.

 

Unlike some theological bigot who sits at home on the internet all day wasting people's time in cyberspace I have spent 39 long years involved in hands-on evangelism to those involved in the Rock Music Industry, Whitchcraft and the Occult. I am absolutely sick of this blabbering idiot making false and provocative accusations in print on this site. What kind of personal vendetta is he on just because he can't stand being proven wrong with legitimate counter evidence ?

 

I qualified in Ministry in 1994 and have been working in 'real world' ministry to the Occult under the blanket of most of the denominations he claims to respect ever since. Recently I ran a major evangelistic work for 10 years up to 2005 (when I started work in television) and still work with Pagan, Wiccan, Druid, Templar, Catholic, Jewish and Christian interfaith organisations to this day - no wonder I do occult events (and the super-educated book quoting Goonerman should look up 'occult' in the dictionary as the Bible also falls into this category of literature !)

 

Whoopee, Goonerman can find me on the Internet as what I do is entirely public - where the hell is Goonerman ??? Who's the secret one now then - come on and reveal your real name here. You even have my photograph, web site AND I appear on TV !!! How dare some jumped-up egotistical pile of Irish Civil Servant Presbytarian hide behind a veil of academia and sit in judgement on what God chooses to do with ANY other Christian / human being - and do it based on complete and utter ignorance ! What an APPALLING set of assumptions. I venture to say that Goonerman has proven himself to be very deeply racist.

 

Goonerman has got his juvenile way and driven me from this thread. I'm not happy with this kind of persistant and sadly typical persecution from someone who CLAIMS to be 'in the Church' so I'm off this site for good. 'Divine' my **** - try admitting you're a sinner like everyone else Goonerman !

[Mary]

A cult fair??? Hmm would that be an old pagan fair? Came before Christianity? Never mind - I don't really want to know.

[Mary]

I am sorry to see you go - I have enjoyed your information and ideas - we always have trouble when religion is brought up. Maybe its time to lock this thread MODERATORS?

[Peter T]

I agree with you Mary.

I hope that MIB has second thoughts and continues to enrich us with his knowledge on all manner of things.

As for censorship, I am not knowledgeable enough in the Scriptures etc, to comment or decide what is true or not.

As always, if someone objects to what has been posted, they should PM any of the Admin, and they will take whatever action is deemed appropriate.

[Goonerman]

Of course I am a sinner- signed Andrew William Milligan.

 

Of course I am a sinner- signed Andrew William Milligan. And if you want to lock the thread, please do, but MIB, do not leave this website on my account. Especially as I've been planning a farewell present to WWW since February which I will do soon, then I will depart the forum. The reason why I use tough techniques on my discussion here is because there are far bigger issues at stake than any of us. I'm just a quiet guy whose relentless logic some people when they see the text mistake for aggression. Peter has met me and he did not get a ranting fanatic. I don't understand the 'racism' reference- Peter and I sure discussed the adorable Far Eastern girl who served us in the coffee shop in Golden Square.

 

[ 14.08.2007, 16:02: Message edited by: Goonerman ]

[Goonerman]

No need to rescind my membership, Peter's done the trick again! And without even trying!

 

Alas, a Christian internet apologist, Mr. JPH, has awarded poor MIB a Screwball Award! ), and we get this strange idea of a plain Gospel given to us muggles by Jesus through Peter, via Rome (the Proddy in me says BOGUS) and Jesus gave the Gnostic esoteric version through John (through the Celts not least us Irish- St. Patrick's Confessions, the lives of St Columba, Columbanus and Gall and the Bangor Antiphonary tell a different story, of a simple evangelical Gospel). I suppose then the claim would be of a greater significance then for the Synod of Whitby in AD 664 when the Romans defeated the Irish in debate and England turned Catholic then. A win for simple Rome versus special esoteric Ireland. As if. Not least that Jesus would never give two contradictory Gospel messages for people to believe in, nor would it have been right for one faction to follow Peter and one John, given that both men including Jesus' brother James would not have been joint Apostles to the Jews and Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles in mutual agreement in a private meeting in Jerusalem between the four men in AD 48 when the former three gave Paul the right hand of fellowship- a formal handshake- and Peter and John would never have been joint spokesmen epxressing the same simple Gospel at the start from Pentecost AD 33 onwards. And the Synod of Whitby violated Paul's charge not to sink into the factionalism of "I follow Paul", "I follow Cephas (Peter)" and "I follow Apollos". See 1 Corinthians for the silly arguments in the Corinthian church over following leaders rather than Christ- much to the leaders' embarrassment.

 

Plus it was Rome who brought all the mystical esoteric and pagan stuff- the Celts merely infused the pagan love of nature into Christianity without corrupting the Gospel and worshipping nature but worshipping its Creator, it was rather Rome who produced the Templars and all, after all...

 

At the minute my research is far from complete and MIB has given me some leads of enquiry, as has the actual different sources I have looked at, so there is a lot of educated guessing by me at the moment as to how the 'Johannine Gnosticism' emerged in modern times, but I suppose ideas about the St John's Hospitallers and the Nag Hammadi finds combined with the New Age Movement, etc, played their part, and as you know, paganism and Gnosticism, paganism ecpecially, never went away, you know. And got mixed, even though the two ideas are really not compatible. I only hope and pray it won't take us 200 years in the Evangelical camp to shake Gnosticism off this time, the trouble is most of my friends, including well-educated ones would simply go, "Duh, Whaaaaa?" at what has gone on in this thread. They are so ill-prepared!

 

Right, that's that, you will be relieved to know Peter that the nibble struck me straight away, but alas I must head off to do what I am supposed to be doing instead of positing theories as to how the opposition got its ideas together... So apart from a few posts I reckon just before I head to New York in late September is when the posts flow again.

 

[ 14.08.2007, 20:45: Message edited by: Goonerman ]

[Peter T]

Originally posted by The Man In Black:

I've had enough of this unremitting judgemental abuse from Goonerman. I can't believe he's been allowed to get away with pages and pages of ranting gobbledygook, religious predudice and insults !!! I have not made ANY direct judgements against him. I actually thought he was having a laugh at first - evidently not.

 

Sorry Gary & Co - this is not what I came here for. I'm retiring to concentrate on the next series of Lost Treasures. Come back Indianna James ALL IS FORGIVEN

Mark,

Unfortunately, you don't have an e-mail address. Some things I prefer to post privately.

 

You are not the first poster nor the last to get into a "debate" and get angry when it "appears" to descend into a slanging match.

Whether you agree or not, you and Goonerman have brought some interesting posts to the Forum, and maybe should agree to disagree. After all, it is an individuals perception that he/she writes about.

 

I hope you will reconsider your post about leaving us.

 

We value your Historical comments and I for one would miss your posts re. your work. I know that others would too.

 

PS. G'mans biggest problem is that he supports Arsenal. Other than being serious/dedicated to his religious side he is ok. At least he has opened a few minds on here. (Possibly closed some as well)

 

 

Peter.

Admin.

[Steve the Original]

I been following this thread and i think its quite good no real hassle and for once very few insults.

I see no reason to lock this thread for the moment and @all debates do get heated and eveyone trys to get their point of view across but hey thats the whole idea of a debate isnt it??so no use throwing your ted in the corner and doing a runner because the going gets tough,we dont want to lose any serious posters and it would be a great shame to do so,so come on guys if you cant agree then agree not to agree and keep on posting,saying that glad to see Gman is staying now what about you MIB?????i never had you down as a quitter!!!! :angel:

 

All have posted some good stuff here in this thread and put their point of view across using facts and i bet it has given some os us room for thought, so well done to all....

 

 

Steve (still the Agnostic)

[Man in Black]

My problem is this - I have told Goonerman that I BELIEVE THE BIBLE and that I am actively involved in working for the same God as a qualified minister.

 

So Goonerman evidently decides that that's not the case, doesn't read my posts properly, overkills with his opinions, finally admits he doesn't have the necessary background knowledge (which was obvious from day one), obviously doesn't accept that the Church has passed through 2000 years of history since the New Testament so ignores it all, quotes endlessly from books and web sites without understanding or thinking about any of it, is INCREDIBLY inconsiderate to all you other readers out there, etc. etc. etc.

 

While the Gnostics of today do have a basic frame work for their belief structure they are all INDIVIDUALS - Gnosticism is all about the individuals personal relationship to the Divine - so this single fact demonstrates Goonerman's lack of understanding. On this basis how can he 'research' what I believe !?! Duuuh

 

Peter, why do I have no e-mail address (Pause for thought) ? Answer - I don't live in cyberspace and I don't usually have time for this - or the hundreds of weekly e-mails the TV web site fends off !

 

I said I would still make the occational post and I will - just not with respect to Goonerman. Thanks for the positive comments guys. I'm filming again from September so enjoy me while you can :angelwings:

[Legion]

MIB, please do stay, your posts on this subject alone have been enlightening to me, you have concisly put information that would take me years to find on my own.

 

If I have any one firm belief on the whole matter it is that during life, the wonder of ones place in the universe is the ONLY topic of any relavance, all else passes.

 

whomevers viewpoint is correct, we wont find out for a long time hopefuly.

 

you cannot blame goonerman for his unswaying beleifs, it is hard for anyone brought up in this country to stray from since we are indoctorinated from birth with the christian way of life.

 

thankfuly we are now in a country and time which allows some enquisative of us to question this, without being burned at the stake.

 

people get to hett up over religeon, which is why so many people shun it and say its the cause of wars etc, in truth it is not its the people who use it to crusade their narrow minds. (on re-reading this may appear to be an attack on goonerman it is most definately not, I think his ability to defend is viewpoint is admirable)

 

I think I coined this phrase "the wiser man is the one who listens and not the one who preaches." although I may have subconciously stolen it in my youth.

 

[ 15.08.2007, 11:32: Message edited by: legion ]

[Legion]

goonerman - can you shorten your posts, my attention/retention ratio is very low. and I would love to debate this furter one passage at at time.

[Goonerman]

Right, time to poke my head in for one day and answer any points, before I disappear again, as for the next week or so I will have no freetime at all nor any time on the internet whatsoever.

 

LEGION- "goonerman - can you shorten your posts, my attention/retention ratio is very low. and I would love to debate this furter one passage at at time."

GOONERMAN- "Then take each point I make one at a time and slowly and carefully build up the picture of what I am saying, and do your own research. Don't just take MIB's word for it or my word for it."

 

I'll get back to you Legion further down in the post.

 

MIB- "My problem is this - I have told Goonerman that I BELIEVE THE BIBLE and that I am actively involved in working for the same God as a qualified minister."

GOONERMAN- No, you twist the Bible for your own ends, quoting everything out of context and impose on the text a secret code only supposedly known since 1955 excluding countless generations which even if true has some sort of meaningless stunt of hidden rows of sevens if it even is correct, which does nothing to put forward any case for Gnosticism or paganism (which are two irreconcilable systems anyway). There is no substitute for the good old straightforward grammatico-historical method and use of proper context. We are not working for the same God, MIB. Yours is a counterfeit ragbag of contradictory ideas of various gods from various religions. The fact that you are a qualified minister means nothing at all. Am I just supposed to obey you because you are a minister? As Peter and John said to the Jewish High Priest and Sanhedrin, no less, " We obey God rather than men." There are three books in the Bible which are specifically for the training and instruction of pastors. 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. Take note of Paul's instructions: "As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths..." 1 Tim 1:3-4a. "They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm." 1 Tim 1:7. "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." 1 Tim 4:1. Paul makes a clearly anti-Gnostic statement: "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Tim 4:5. "If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing." 1 Tim 6:3-4a. "Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge" 1 Tim 6:20b. "Knowledge", which in Greek is 'Gnosis', refers to Gnosticism!

 

Sound advice from Paul to Timothy also consists of this:

 

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15.

 

And,

 

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." 2 Tim 4:3-4.

 

Also, Paul says this in 1 Corinthians. This is important.

 

"We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or in earth (as indeed there are many "gods" or many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live,; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things come and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8:4b-6.

 

Note also: "knowledge [Gnosis] puffs up, but love builds up." 1 Cor 8:1b.

 

As for the claim elsewhere that Jesus=Zeus, well in Greek it is Iesous and Zeos. Tough luck.

 

[ 25.08.2007, 18:23: Message edited by: Goonerman ]

[Man in Black]

Every single scripture quoted in this section is there without ANY background thought as to WHAT THEY MEAN - AAAAARGH !!!!!!!!!!!! Goonerman's entire approach to everything he writes on this forum is just WRONG :bluegrab:

 

Maybe I don't put all my information on actually gives a toss ?

 

Now let me see - the main point of all this is God wants all people saved:

 

Heads: we have Goonerman's rants, Tails: we have small well explained intelegent argumments based on fact, Biblical and non-Biblical (as requested I believe ?)

 

Time Goonerman left for good I think as his god is not mine, as he freely admits ! It's evident that only Goonerman gets into his heaven. I'd like to see a few more bodies than that in my God's and mine ! (That's the ONLY reason I'm responding here at all despite saying I wouldn't - I get NOTHING out of this).

 

Bottom line I'm afraid Jesus says "you shall know them by their fruits" and there are, frankly, none on your tree here Goonerman, Gunner, or whatever you're called this week !?! :angelwings:

[Man in Black]

The damaged line should read:

 

Maybe I don't put all my information on this forum, maybe no one has asked me to, maybe no one actually gives a toss ? :angelwings:

[observer]

Shouldn't "Gunner" be writing in green ink?!

[Goonerman]

I've found a gap in which to post this reply, so here is my answer, prepared Blue Peter style, earlier on: I've waited long enough.

 

MAN IN BLACK:Every single scripture quoted in this section is there without ANY background thought as to WHAT THEY MEAN - AAAAARGH !!!!!!!!!!!! Goonerman's entire approach to everything he writes on this forum is just WRONG WRONG WRONG

 

GUNNER: The onus is on you to explain. The verses in the previous post may seem just general but in application to the specifics they are spot on. Wow- does that statement about everything I do on this forum being wrong apply to me condemning terrorism? Since everything I write is wrong, you know! Be careful what you write!

 

MAN IN BLACK: I'm a Gnostic but I believe EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE BIBLE AS WRITTEN.

 

GUNNER: Nonsense. If you did, you would not be a Gnostic. Nor would you deny my use of Scripture at every turn. You wouldn't impose an alien set of beliefs on the Bible.

 

MAN IN BLACK: Does that mean I'm hiding what I believe ? NO.

 

GUNNER: That's funny, because you wrote to me before that you refused to tell me your beliefs on the basis of me being insincere and how could I research your beliefs when I did not know what they were. You also said: "I have not made ANY direct judgements against him." That's a laugh!

 

MAN IN BLACK: And furthermore I know what the Bible says - like the bit where Jesus quotes King David's Psalms back to the teachers of his day when he says "is it not written 'are we not all gods ?'" Sorry Goonerman - that makes Jesus a Gnostic doesn't it ???

 

GUNNER: No, it doesn't mean that Jesus was a Gnostic and your ignorance or twisting of the Bible is evident yet again.

 

First, the Psalm Jesus quotes wasn't even written by David, but by Asaph. Jesus is quoting from Psalm 82:7. The context is that Jesus is being threatened with stoning by hostile Jews for claiming to be God, leading to Jesus' sarcastic quip, "For which if these miracles am I to be stoned, for this one or another," to which they replied, "No, but for your blasphemy, for you, a mere man, claim to be God." Then Jesus, in the same sarcastic tone, quotes "You are gods,", so if God calls you gods, He says, how can you say I am blaspheming because I claimed to be God? What we will find is that in Psalm 82 God was being sarcastic there too and Asaph is engaging in some wordplay to heighten the effect. Psalm 82 gives the whole thing a totally different slant on proceedings!

 

 

"God presides in the great assembly; he gives he gives judgment among the 'gods'. How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them from the hands of the wicked. They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. "I said, 'You are 'gods', you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance."

 

 

Oh dear. The 'gods' are evil, they defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked, they know nothing and understand nothing (so how can they possess Gnosis if they know NOTHING?), they will die like mere men and fall like every other ruler. So there you are. These guys are HUMAN. They aren't really gods at all. God is being sarcastic. They are rulers from the great assembly, and they are clearly judges in court- ie they are the corrupt judges of the great assembly of Israel whom God will punish, so when Jesus says this to the Pharisaic opponents, and He is addressing His enemies who want to kill Him, He is endorsing Psalm 82 as a critique and a promise of judgement on them too. Plus there is wordplay. Context having established the true nature of these 'gods', we need to remember that the Hebrew word Elohim literally means High Ones, Exalted Ones, Mighty Ones. God is called this because of His multiplicity in majesty, power and position. Elohim could be used of judges. By contrast, Asaph calls on the true Elohim (God Himself) to judge the earth justly having judged the 'gods'.

 

Therefore does the quotation make Jesus a Gnostic? NO WAY!!! This is the same blunder the Mormons make, they misuse this passage too, and furthermore, is why humanity is in the pickle it is in- the oldest of Satan's lies, that we can become gods, the lie that trapped Adam and Eve.

 

MAN IN BLACK: Septenary design (patterns of sevens and other numbers) were NOT discovered in 1955 - they were used by ALL WRITERS OF ALL SCRIPTUE AT THE TIME IT WAS WRITTEN !!! That's 5000+ years of numeric design by my reckoning - and proof that, yet again, Goonerman has failed to do his home work. He always goes on about his research ability but always researches only that which he wants - not the full subject.

 

GUNNER: Then explain to me why Professor Weingreen says that the present Hebrew Numerals system was not devised until after the Maccabean period? There is so little material on this subject and nothing beyond patterns of 7 and nothing on a big secret code in the patterns to defend Gnosticism that the whole thing sounds like totally bogus. One of the sites promoting Septenary Design specifically states that the pattern was claimed to have been discovered in 1955. Also, get this one: I note that on one of the wbsites about you that you tell people in lectures that the Bible was written then re-written. Now that must mean that if the present form of the Bible is fraudulent, then so the Septenary Design if real would be fraudulent, as it would only have been added during the re-write. Since there is no manuscript evidence for such a re-write, then any such proposal is fraudulent and arrogant. Either that or there WAS a Septenary Design in the original, which is now lost thanks to the destruction of the original Bible. The fact remains, the only likely source of this idea is in Kabbalism which well post-dates the New Testament period. Put it this way, my minister TEACHES Hebrew and has never HEARD of Septenary Design. It isn't because the Church is covering it up, nor because we in the Church are all muggles, it's because IT DOESN'T EXIST AND ANY CLAIM ABOUT IT IS BASED ON A MISTAKE AT BEST OR A LIE AT WORST.

 

This is what you have to do in order to make me begin to take your views seriously: It's about time you moved beyond mere assertion and refusal to provide evidence, via links and bibliography or peer-reviewed scholarly papers to explain the mechanics of septenary design and its supposed hidden messages, and started to deliver. I really really want to know what your full views on Septenary Design really are or I will know for sure it is nothing but hot air and a cover for your real exegetical method, which is to rip Bible verses out of context. I want to know how you account for Weingreen's statement that Hebrew numerals altered in the Maccabean period. Show me that every seventh letter can make up a secret narrative in the Bible justfying Gnosticism. IN DETAIL. Give me the exact narrative of the secret messages. Point to manuscript evidence for the Old Testament showing that Septenary Design exists in both the post Maccabean and pre Maccabean Hebrew numeral systems. Links and bibliography provided, peer-reviewed papers, etc. Finally, explain to me why God would say one thing on the surface text and hide a contradictory set of teachings behind the surface text. For if the Bible's surface text backed up Gnosticism, there wouldn't be any need for a hidden Septenary Design in the first place. Prove to me also how Gnosticism and Paganism are compatible, when everything points to Gnostics believing the bang opposite of Pagans. You are a Neo-Gnostic who is really a pagan who selectively misuses the Bible and Gnostic texts along with all sorts of pagan texts and beliefs to concoct your own pagan pseudo-Christian pseudo-Gnostic DIY theology. Which seems to me to be shifting about a little to make it seem elusive to me. The only true Gnostics are the Manichaeans today. You need to defend those things in detail and positively and lay off the ad hominems and knuckle down to providing me with real scholarship. Otherwise in your case faith really IS believing in things you know are false.

So tell me about Dr. Ivan Panin.

 

MAN IN BLACK: Heads: we have Goonerman's rants, Tails: we have small well explained intelegent argumments based on fact, Biblical and non-Biblical (as requested I believe ?)

 

GUNNER: I give closely argued explanations dealing with your errors and lies, while you twist everything.

 

MAN IN BLACK: Time Goonerman left for good I think as his god is not mine, as he freely admits ! It's evident that only Goonerman gets into his heaven. I'd like to see a few more bodies than that in my God's and mine ! (That's the ONLY reason I'm responding here at all despite saying I wouldn't - I get NOTHING out of this).

 

GUNNER: You have no right or authority to tell me what to do. And yes, AT LAST you admit we worship different G(g)ods. I worship YHWH who came to us as the human we call Jesus. You worship a counterfeit and try to make it out we are all gods, which is blasphemy.

 

MAN IN BLACK: It's evident that only Goonerman gets into his heaven.

 

GUNNER: Where do you get your delusional garbage from? I want to see EVERYONE IN HEAVEN INCLUDING YOU!!!! That's why I was helping at a missionary fair recently, hence partly why I have been absent from here and am making moves towards leaving my job to serve my Master in being His messenger boy. And don't you DARE tell me I don't believe that my late mother and countless other good people are in Heaven. Don't insult my mother's memory. And most of all, don't do the following again:

 

MAN IN BLACK: I know which god Goonerman follows referred to in Revelation as "the great whore Babylon" - religion.

 

GUNNER: This blasphemy against God is precisely what I expect from a Gnostic, given the teachings of the Biblical OT God being the evil satanic janitor demiurge runt when He in fact is the true God. You may fool others here and yourself but you don't fool me. Anyway, that's not what the Great Whore of Babylon is.

My God is YHWH. Ask Him for forgiveness for your blasphemies, wrong beliefs and practices. Surrender to Him. He will forgive you if you do, He is very, indeed MOST amenable and approachable. So much so that Jesus died for you on the Cross.

 

And I will let Him have the last word, glory be to Him: :bow:

 

"You shall have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

 

"Hear O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is One." Mark 12:29b, quoting Deuteronomy 6:4

 

""To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One." Isaiah 40:25

 

"I am the LORD, that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols." Isaiah 42:8

 

"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed- I, and not some foreign god among you." Isaiah 43:10b-12a

 

"I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it." Isaiah 44:6b-7a

 

"Is there any god besides me? No, there is nother Rock; I know not one." Isaiah 44:8b

 

"I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise, and turns it into nonsense, who carries out the words of his servants and fulfils the predictions of his messengers." Isaiah 44:24a-26

 

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5a

 

And here is His promise:

 

"Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness. I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed." Isaiah 46:12-13a.

 

[ 21.09.2007, 18:11: Message edited by: GUNNER ]

[observer]

they're coming to take him away, ha ha: to the funny farm etc... :sleeping:

[Evil Sid]

obs one thing i have learnt over the years. never knock another persons religion.

 

you may get smited :onfire:

[Mary]

Good Advice Sid - how your doing?

 

[ 22.09.2007, 16:13: Message edited by: Mary ]

[observer]

In order to "get smited", one would need to believe this superstitious nonesense in the first place - (gets struck by bolt of lightening) - arrrgh!

[Goonerman]

Become a stormchaser, Obbs. Then your chances will increase!

[tonymaillman]

Originally posted by Mary:

The core of all of today's religions, but none will ever admit to that what's your views on paganism ? and NO please don't start dragging it into the 'satanic' world because it's NOTHING to do with that

 

Thank TMM for beginning a very long discussion!!

As expected my theory for starting this thread has proved absolutely correct ....... that religions, beliefs etc, whatever you wish to call them, are the biggest cause of argument, trouble, war etc etc on the planet ...... they always have been and always will be !

As with most - if not all - things people do or follow, it's EACH TO THEIR OWN !! but please, please DO NOT RAM your own interests/beliefs/faiths etc down the throat of others who are NOT interested ! history and religion go hand in hand (obviously ) and ALL that anyone nowadays can do is to BASE THEIR FACTS ON WRITTEN WORDS OF POSSIBLY BIASED PEOPLE OF THE PERIODS IN QUESTION. We do NOT know what happened or how it happened or why it happened .......... and we NEVER will !

With regards to the original core of this thread i.e paganism, which to a higher degree is formed around the belief in the earth and what it gives, isn't it ironic that in this modern day and age when the very planet that paganism held in high esteem is being 'uncontrollably destroyed' by the believers of 'other' things ???????????????? does this therefore mean that the new 'jump on the bandwagon' recycling brigade nowadays has some pagan blood and are actually 'attempting' (very feebly of course) to 'think' they care about the earth around them ?????????????????????

[Peter T]

Which goes to show that tribalism and "religion" have and always will be a major part of life.

As you say, "each to their own" and stuff the PC brigade.

 

It is all about respecting other points of view.

[Goonerman]

As far as I was concerned I was exercising my democratic right to defend myself against brickbats and false accusations. Steve the Original ruled that the rules of the website were not being breached, after all. I'm not interested in ramming anything down anybody's throat.

 

However, I want to challenge a few flawed assumptions. One, is that most wars are caused by religion, when in reality, land, economics and power are the main causes. I could name stacks of secular wars but only a few religious ones, and even then it isn't as simple as that. Does Edward I's war in Scotland count as a religious war....?

 

I respect moderate Muslims. Much in the Qur'an I nod at in agreement, though there are serious divergences of opinion on crucial issues.

 

But the real danger is that this growing paranoia about Christians, and the failure to see the difference between me talking about things like the Diatessaron and the Kerygma and the hateful statements of Abdul Hamza and Osama Bin Laden, and the fear of Islamic extremism (and the realisation that we Christians WON'T retaliate when ill-treated in the future but will take it on the chin whereas Muslim extremists will kill), will lead to the Western powers and people persecuting Christians, and letting the Taliban in by the back door. Far from the Secular paradise Dawkins and Obbs hope for, having hit the Christians, the Secularists and Post-Modernists will wake up to the nightmare of the Islamic Republic of Britishstan!

 

(At least it will help flush the false Christians from our churches!)

 

Far from conspiring against the world, Christians engage in evangelism and charitable causes, and also, for the past decade or so in Britain we have been organising seminars in which Christian refugees from the Third World, Muslim and Communist countries, and Fascist Latin dictatorships, are training us in preparation for the persecution and harassment in the UK which is going to follow in the next few decades. Ironically secular bigotry and the following Islamic Republic to come might just be the making of Christians. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.

 

Be careful. All of us, whatever our background, Christian, Secular, Muslim, must hold back. Great care we must take, for if we don't, we'll be going down a very dark path. One in which the extremists will win.

 

Don't you understand? If we Christians were so full of hate and bigotry as some claim, we wouldn't need to use guns and bombs, all we have to do to destroy Britain and say to destroy Britain is...

 

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. EVER.

 

[ 15.11.2007, 17:45: Message edited by: GUNNER ]

[tonymaillman]

The extremists will win ? errrm judging from your posts the only 'extremist' in this thread is yourself !

Interpretation and knowledge of the past comes from only THREE sources ..... manuscript, illumination and ACTUAL physical archaeological finds.

Tell me something then ......... if by saying 'we will never know exactly how things were' is a 'lazy' way out, I'd be really pleased to hear from you how things 'EXACTLY' were then ! I presume therefore you DO know how life was and how people went about their lives and how people spoke, ate, behaved, worked, etc etc etc etc .......... how exactly do YOU know ??? you DON'T because you CANNOT !! we guess and assume at how it MAY have been ! any person deeply involved in history i.e. archaeolgists, interpretors, lecturers, etc will all tell you this ........ but you obviously have a gift that no other person on this planet has

Lastly, religion IS behind MOST wars, yes MOST as I stated ! NOT all !! and where - pray tell - did I mention Edward's wars with Scotland ??????????????