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Observer II

Does boiling water kill the virus ?

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The 2016 exercise (Cerburus?), was conducted by HMG, as far as I'm aware;  and at least shows a capability for planning for such contingencies,  albeit they relied on external procurement.  Don't you imagine for a minute that NHS Managers and Civil Servants don't talk to each other, in both planning and operation.  This idea of some kind of segmented response is impractical and wrong headed.  The head of the pyramid of command is the PM, and that's how it should be in a National Emergency.      😷

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3 hours ago, Observer II said:

I suppose you expect the NHS to order, police and fund a lock down ?    :rolleyes:  😷

This must go forward for the most inane comment of the year award 🙄.

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44 minutes ago, Observer II said:

The 2016 exercise (Cerburus?), was conducted by HMG, as far as I'm aware;  and at least shows a capability for planning for such contingencies,  albeit they relied on external procurement.  Don't you imagine for a minute that NHS Managers and Civil Servants don't talk to each other, in both planning and operation.  This idea of some kind of segmented response is impractical and wrong headed.  The head of the pyramid of command is the PM, and that's how it should be in a National Emergency.      😷

The object of exercises is to pre-plan for emergencies. I'm sure that the outcome of the exercise you're talking about didn't come to the conclusion that "whatever happens the PM of the day will arrange for all equipment that may be required to be on hand". Rather it would conclude that PHE would do the job they are being handsomely funded for. Obs, you are old enough to know that the last people you want involved in planning for anything is the government and the civil service 🙄.

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3 minutes ago, Observer II said:

I suppose in your book, Churchill should have put our defence in 1940, out to contract ? !    :rolleyes:

Our defense in 1940 was already being effected by the armed forces, but that is nothing to do with what is happening today. Another stupid statement Obs.

We aren't battling against another country's armed forces or a political enemy but against a public health emergency which should have been dealt with by the public health agencies which we have been financing with our taxes for years. The fact that these agencies (the NHS and PHE) have failed should be the focus for your concern rather than pointing your finger at government ministers. Unfortunately any criticism of the way that the NHS operates is taken as direct criticism of the people who do such sterling work in the employ of the NHS (the doctors and nurses) and therefore the NHS manages to avoid any deserved criticism by hiding behind the aforementioned employees. If we had a more efficient health service, as many other countries in the world do, the doctors and nurses would still be employed (probably under better conditions) and we would possibly be better prepared for the situation we find ourselves in. I know it's difficult to change the way we think, but perhaps now is the time to rethink the whole health and social service system in this country. For too long the NHS has been held out to be the model that the world should copy, and the world has shrugged its shoulders and said "you've got to be joking?"

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This isn't just a health emergency, it's an economic emergency too; a strategic threat to our wellbeing;  so not confined to the NHS;  it's therefore an issue of command and control by HMG.   btw aside from some obvious clangers, I'm not pointing the finger, I expect HMG to resolve it, and I'm pleasantly surprised that it's a Tory Gov that has committed itself to "big Government" in order to do just that.    😷

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On 4/17/2020 at 9:41 AM, asperity said:

I'm not "whinging" about anything, but you have to admit that it's poor PR and doesn't fit in with the narrative of the undermanned, overworked NHS without any PPE. Or maybe it's Tory propaganda?

I don't think it is a PR video, just some staff messing around when they have a few minutes. They are  still allowed meal and tea breaks in the NHS.

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Maybe the lesson learnt is that manufacturing everything thousands of miles away is not a great idea

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8 hours ago, Milky said:

I don't think it is a PR video, just some staff messing around when they have a few minutes. They are  still allowed meal and tea breaks in the NHS.

I didn't say it was a PR video, just that it's poor PR. Fine if they want to mess around in their breaks, it's their time, but to video themselves dancing around wearing all that PPE (which is like gold dust apparently, but will have to be disposed of before going back on the wards I assume) and putting it out on social media doesn't chime with the idea that the NHS staff are overwhelmed and under-resourced in my opinion.

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Seems they've now proven that sunlight (UV rays) destroy the virus, so I guess we need a long hot summer.    But before packing your speedos for that trip to the nearest beach,  it doesn't stop infected persons continuing to be contagious.  So I guess mass testing will be required first.  But I guess sunbathing in your back yard is a start.   😷

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The economic outcome could be even worse than the Covid emergency & with worse consequences for the population. Every shred of our lives & well being is commercially influenced ,none of us in the UK are able to live off the land or hunt wild animals on Bank Park.

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We could buy our wild animals from China, if there's any left ! 😉  I recall asking my butcher a couple of years back, where he sourced his rabbit from  -  told me it was  imported from China, needless to say, rabbit went off my menu !    😷

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Guinea pigs were a favourite food source at one time. Easy to breed and with the added advantage that you could use the fur to make a warm coat for winter.....🥺..🤭

And everybody knows that cat can be used as a chicken substitute.....🤫

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23 hours ago, Observer II said:

Seems they've now proven that sunlight (UV rays) destroy the virus, so I guess we need a long hot summer.    But before packing your speedos for that trip to the nearest beach,  it doesn't stop infected persons continuing to be contagious.  So I guess mass testing will be required first.  But I guess sunbathing in your back yard is a start.   😷

But Spain has had warm weather & plenty of UV earlier in the year than us & they've had an horrific time with the virus. Their main problem could be opening their tourist industry too early & restarting the pandemic.

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I'm a bit confused over this PPE issue:   there's clearly not enough of it, and I think the main reason is it's one use policy, which must be consigning huge quantities to waste.  I thought (at one time) Hospitals had there own laundries, where they could boil, wash and disinfect PPE for re-use ?   Plus, if we get some sunshine, they could hang it out to dry !    The issue with Spain and Italy, like most Countries was the failure to lock down sooner and  ban all travel to and from China.  This type of incident requires immediate and draconian action to nip it in the bud; alas we're now chasing it.  Still, it's nice to see us Brits showing their natural aptitude for queuing for everything !     😷

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Obs, the policy change was to only treat as single use only that PPE which says it has to be. AIUI some respirators cannot have filters changed and some mask deform beyond reuse when taken off. The document from WHO  I linked to on Saturday tells you the cleaning mechanism to use for various type that can be re-used. The PHE document did suggest that there was a tendency to not reuse, which is understandable in a stressed time. However if you just cannot get the stuff you have to consider alternatives and it is that which the unions are objecting to.

The use of UV light is discussed in Annex1, thus

"The use of UV radiation can be a potential alternative; however, the low penetration power of UV light may not reach inner materials of respirator or penetrate through pleats or folds.20 The parameters of disinfection by using UVC light is not yet fully standardized for the purpose of reprocessing masks and respirators; this requires a validation procedure to ensure that all surfaces inside and outside masks are reached by the UVC light with appropriate irradiation time.20,21 Comparison among studies regarding methods is limited owing to different outcomes and evaluation methods. Further, the implications for practical considerations must include the feasibility of the control of all parameters of the methods." 

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Still not convinced that boiling and washing can't facilitate re-supply.  As for masks,  plenty of youtubers have demonstrated how to make your own, but we have a fashion industry, that surely could switch to making masks and gowns; why are we depending on international supply for such simple items ?     😷

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11 minutes ago, Observer II said:

Still not convinced that boiling and washing can't facilitate re-supply.  As for masks,  plenty of youtubers have demonstrated how to make your own, but we have a fashion industry, that surely could switch to making masks and gowns; why are we depending on international supply for such simple items ?     😷

I didn't say what you tell us you aren't convinced of! DIY masks are not likely to meet the relevant standards, which are all available online so that potential manufacturers can make offers to help. The water repellent gowns are as I said before what might be difficult to manufacture, in our depleted rag trade, and to make available for re-use. I suspect they are suggesting disposable bibs and washable gowns instead. They explicitly suggest in the PHE guidance that the water repellent gowns only be used in the most pressing circumstances in ICU and for longer shifts where possible to reduce demand. I suspect that some of the PPE , including respirators and medical masks, are not actually simple items. It is the ones that are not simple which are the problem whilst the useless MSM are trying to make out that the problem is with everything. That is what gives rise to understandable comments like the one above. 

That is why the MSM can come up with rubbish like

"Medics have been left furious over the Deputy Chief Medical Officer’s suggestion that doctors need to be having a more ‘adult conversation’ over the use of personal protective equipment (PPE)."

The comments by Jenny Harries seem reasonable unless you have an axe to grind. No amount of politicking can overcome a world shortage of specific PPE which could not have been stockpiled without knowing the nature of the disease in advance or had increased industrial capacity generated in time to prevent a shortage. The MSM seem to be totally devoid of a realistic understanding of how the world works, and it is depressing.

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There appear to be several "activists" in the NHS peddling misinformation about the PPE situation purely to score political points ("never let a good crisis go to waste").

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And,therein is the problem. Not one country was ready for this crisis so there will be a shortage. There must be loads of suitable material in the UK that can be used .Charity shops are overflowing & how much of the clothing is made of cotton that can be boiled & sterilised ? Colours don't matter as long as the material can be turned into PPE. The news reports we see of factories & cottage industries turning to making appropriately coloured scrubs are actually using suitable colours so ,either, material is available or the cottage industries could turn out much more if specific material was no longer an issue.

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Having read a number of articles by "experts", I'm quite satisfied that PPE could be safely disinfected by boiling, washing for re-use;  current one use practise is clearly wastefull and expensive;  and being used as an excuse to clobber HMG by some.     😷

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Did see an appeal on faceache for any duvet covers or unused bedsheets that are in good condition to use in making PPE. not sure how genuine that is as i say it was on faceache.

That being the case how many bedding shops will have new in stock that could be used for said purpose.

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Well said Sid ,& the NHS could get some cheap if the sales are on. I think responses at times like these show up the deficiencies in the so called bright sparks running the show.

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