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We fought two world wars, both made the UK bankrupt; had we worried about the economy, we'd all be speaking German now.  This is a war and will require degrees of personal discomfort and sacrifice to win.  You can of course take a laissez-faire view, and allow it to spread on the basis that most folk will survive and produce anti-bodies;  that the elderly and infirm can be written off thus saving £billions in pensions and elderly care or that it will eradicate the problem of rough sleeping and drug taking. But I think most folk don't want to write anyone off, neither do I think Doctors want to asked to act like God.  The decision of the Premier League and other Sporting Authorities, despite the financial hit they will take, is worthy of praise and has shunted Boris into getting a grip.  The most important element of this fight is to maintain social distancing; for the oldies this means stopping at home, getting supplies delivered  to your door step, and only talking to folk on the phone or skype.  

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I have just realised that i have an anti virus on my PC so i don't have to worry about catching it......🤭

The big worry for a lot of people is that they think that if they catch it they will die. The majority of deaths so far have been in people who have a weakened immune system due to age or some pre-existing health issue, such as asthma.

given that the virus has a longer survival rate outside of the host body, i am surprised that having food delivered has not been a cause for concern. The people who order online being particularly vulnerable to an infected food delivery.

I would be rather worried if i was paranoid enough.

Has the person picking the food items off the shelves been in contact with the virus.

Has somebody with the virus handled the food and put it back on the shelf.

Has the delivery driver been in contact with it. has he cleaned his hands before getting in the cab and between deliveries.

The possibilities for infection are endless if you sit and think about it even for a few minutes. How many people come into contact with something before you do, for example Petrol pump handles.

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11 hours ago, Milky said:

So what makes the UK so different from virtually every other country, although in Scotland they are stopping public events, or is the virus different here?

the current director of public health might be wrong and why would the present person in the job have better information then anyone else in the world?

So you don't think that each country in the world has differences to the others?

I didn't say that the current director has better information than anyone else in the world, I said that he was likely better informed than the previous director, given that he is the man on the spot being directly given the information by his staff.

Scotland has its own government and can make whatever decisions it wants. This doesn't make Scotland's decisions the right ones.

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horses for courses springs to mind.

What works for the Italians might not work for us, just as what will work for us might not work for the Americans.

You just have to trust that the experts consulted get it right or that you pick the right experts at least.

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8 hours ago, asperity said:
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So you don't think that each country in the world has differences to the others?

Yes there are differences but not when it comes to the virus, it effects people in exactly the same way, just because you live in the UK does not mean you have some special immunity to it. So tell us what make the UK different, less sparsely populated then other countries, people shop, work, travel differently or what? I have not traveled the world like you have but I have traveled across Europe and I do not see any huge differences between how people live where ever I have been.

The UKs encourage of "flock immunity"  means encouraging people to get infected and build up immunity that will likely result in  lots of people will die too. Unless I missed something?

 

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3 hours ago, Evil Sid said:

horses for courses springs to mind.

What works for the Italians might not work for us, just as what will work for us might not work for the Americans.

You just have to trust that the experts consulted get it right or that you pick the right experts at least.

The virus will effect an Italian or American in exactly the same way. People living in Rome may be more likely to get the virus then someone  living in the outbacks of Alaska  but that has nothing to do with nationality but the likely hood of getting in contact with it.

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4 minutes ago, Milky said:

Yes there are differences but not when it comes to the virus, it effects people in exactly the same way, just because you live in the UK does not mean you have some special immunity to it. So tell us what make the UK different, less sparsely populated then other countries, people shop, work, travel differently or what? I have not traveled the world like you have but I have traveled across Europe and I do not see any huge differences between how people live where ever I have been.

The UKs encourage of "flock immunity"  means encouraging people to get infected and build up immunity that will likely result in  lots of people will ding too. Unless I missed something?

 

As an example, the way people react to each other differs from country. In the UK people are very reserved, generally restricting themselves to a handshake if anything for a greeting, while in Italy, France, Spain and others multiple hugs and kisses are the norm. In many countries people tend to congregate in restaurants for their meals rather than eating at home in family groups. As for many people dying because the government is "encouraging" people to get infected, well the signs are that unless you're in a position to lock yourself away in complete isolation for a year or so you are going to be exposed at some stage.

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6 hours ago, asperity said:

As an example, the way people react to each other differs from country. In the UK people are very reserved, generally restricting themselves to a handshake if anything for a greeting, while in Italy, France, Spain and others multiple hugs and kisses are the norm.

OK let you have your example and it is probably why the numbers are greater in these countries although I am not sure about eating out often, lots of people do that here too.

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As for many people dying because the government is "encouraging" people to get infected, well the signs are that unless you're in a position to lock yourself away in complete isolation for a year or so you are going to be exposed at some stage

Well yes maybe, I spoke to a Doctor who I know and that is what he said but I have a niece who works in the field of medicine development, spoke to her this evening and they are already lining up human guinea pigs for trails (£2500 if you fancy getting injected with the virus).

but even if they do not fined  a vaccine don't you want to spread it out so the system can cope better?

There are suggestions that people can cope with corona virus better in summer and the virus itself does not cope with heat well (although I guess that won't help the UK or Northern Italy) 

Government is coming up against a lot of criticizem for its plans for handling the virus threat.from various scientific bodies.

 

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Milky, of course the government is coming in for criticism. It doesn't matter what the government does someone will criticise them!!

Put 10 scientists in a room and they will not be able to agree on anything.

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According to Matt Hancock today;  we're fast approaching the need to force anyone over 70 into self isolation, likewise with others showing symptoms.   This could last for at least  a period of four months.  Whilst many will have friends and family to support them with doorstep deliveries,  to phone them regulary etc; there will be some who live alone and have no close family or friends.  This places a burden on an extremely politically fractured and polarised society;  to come together for mutual help and survival.   So in that sense, the burden falls on us all to care for each other and possibly re-invent the term society and community. 

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3 hours ago, asperity said:

Milky, of course the government is coming in for criticism. It doesn't matter what the government does someone will criticise them!!

Put 10 scientists in a room and they will not be able to agree on anything.

WHO, Board of Infectious Diseases as well as many mathematicians  are among these that have criticized the government.

I  don't know but common sense to me says the idea of allowing people to continue to get infected is nuts.

You just seem to have blind Faith in the government.

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My alternate plan is to lock all over 70s away for a couple of weeks then throw a huge party for the younger generation.

They all catch the virus but it’s not bad, they don’t need a hospital and they’re all immune in a couple of weeks so the virus can’t spread.

Then let the oldies out for their party.

Whola! Sorted and everyone's a winner (aside from the hangovers).

Who needs these experts.

 

Bill :)

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The first thing I would like to have seen done is to have commandeered suitable firms to make more respirators under government control as in using the model of the Ministry of Aircraft Production; is this a war on Coronavirus or not? Given that we appear to be getting a destroyed economy anyway then we may as well be on a war footing that will make a difference.

EDIT: The BBC now says Car Plants will be used to manufacture ventilators and describes it as a "wartime" measure. I guess the NC machines can learn very fast when given the right data .

It is the lack of respirator numbers that is defining the governments approach as well as needing to need food production ant 80% of normal so keeping the economy working on the important things . The Dept. of Health will soon publish the mathematical models so the armchair critics can see why they are doing what they are doing. Nobody blindly trusts the government as such but the safety of the nation is what they are there for and the government are just following the professional advice of the infection control team that the WHO rated last year as the best in the world; so the government are doing the best anyone can until there is more evidence.

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Don't panic the police will be able to arrest anybody whom they think might have the virus.

Well according to the sun newspaper...🤨

According to The Times, police and immigration officers will be able to detain people "for a limited period" if they're suspected of being infected - while the new laws will also allow the government to force schools and nurseries to stay open if they're closed by teachers or staff during the pandemic...🤧...🚔....😟

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There was a prog on TV, must have been about 30 years ago; which went through the scenario based on Gov planning at the time.  I have to say, it made the Chinese approach look tame; no doubt if the prog was re-shown it would create mass hysteria !

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9 minutes ago, Observer II said:

There was a prog on TV, must have been about 30 years ago; which went through the scenario based on Gov planning at the time.  I have to say, it made the Chinese approach look tame; no doubt if the prog was re-shown it would create mass hysteria !

Just glad I didn't see it :-)

 

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4 hours ago, Bill said:

My alternate plan is to lock all over 70s away for a couple of weeks then throw a huge party for the younger generation.

They all catch the virus but it’s not bad, they don’t need a hospital and they’re all immune in a couple of weeks so the virus can’t spread.

Then let the oldies out for their party.

Whola! Sorted and everyone's a winner (aside from the hangovers).

Who needs these experts.

 

Bill :)

Isn't that what the government are trying to achieve without the party?

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4 hours ago, Confused52 said:

The first thing I would like to have seen done is to have commandeered suitable firms to make more respirators under government control as in using the model of the Ministry of Aircraft Production; is this a war on Coronavirus or not? Given that we appear to be getting a destroyed economy anyway then we may as well be on a war footing that will make a difference.

EDIT: The BBC now says Car Plants will be used to manufacture ventilators and describes it as a "wartime" measure. I guess the NC machines can learn very fast when given the right data .

It is the lack of respirator numbers that is defining the governments approach as well as needing to need food production ant 80% of normal so keeping the economy working on the important things . The Dept. of Health will soon publish the mathematical models so the armchair critics can see why they are doing what they are doing. Nobody blindly trusts the government as such but the safety of the nation is what they are there for and the government are just following the professional advice of the infection control team that the WHO rated last year as the best in the world; so the government are doing the best anyone can until there is more evidence.

If the UK infection unit are so great why is the world not following what the British (minus Scotland) are doing?

There is evidence, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan have all reduced the number of people being infected. We know what the government is doing they are trying to achieve flock immunity!

WHO no longer think the  infection control team is best in the world, they criticized them yesterday!

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Milky, well I heard an interview with Margaret Harris of the WHO and she was saying that the model followed in the Ebola outbreak with lots of people available could be followed in Europe even if the UK thought it could not and the position she advocated was one size fits all and applies to all countries.. I had already thought that the tracing capability would be exhausted before long and we also exceeded our capacity to do tests because they are still replicating the Colindale PHE labs in hospitals.  You cannot just wave a magic wand at these things. The government had said today that the plan is not about banking on herd immunity. It is reducing its spread to at-risk groups and overwhelming the NHS. I do not think that Margaret Harris alone represents the settled view of the WHO either. I can see that they want their general advice followed by other countries.  I suspect that you will see all the things you call for happening in due course but taking half of the workforce out for childcare for 14 weeks would lead to a lot of us starving even without the virus. All the borders are closing there will be no food imports soon. 

I think your assertion is an over-reaction but I retain an open mind.

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7 hours ago, Milky said:

WHO, Board of Infectious Diseases as well as many mathematicians  are among these that have criticized the government.

I  don't know but common sense to me says the idea of allowing people to continue to get infected is nuts.

You just seem to have blind Faith in the government.

On the contrary, I have absolutely no faith in the government getting anything right. On the other hand you seem to be placing all your trust in other experts who may or may not be right, and in your "common sense" however trustworthy that may be.

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2 hours ago, asperity said:

On the contrary, I have absolutely no faith in the government getting anything right. On the other hand you seem to be placing all your trust in other experts who may or may not be right, and in your "common sense" however trustworthy that may be.


 

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3 hours ago, Confused52 said:
Milky, well I heard an interview with Margaret Harris of the WHO and she was saying that the model followed in the Ebola outbreak with lots of people available could be followed in Europe even if the UK thought it could not and the position she advocated was one size fits all and applies to all countries.. I had already thought that the tracing capability would be exhausted before long and we also exceeded our capacity to do tests because they are still replicating the Colindale PHE labs in hospitals.  You cannot just wave a magic wand at these things. The government had said today that the plan is not about banking on herd immunity. It is reducing its spread to at-risk groups and overwhelming the NHS. I do not think that Margaret Harris alone represents the settled view of the WHO either. I can see that they want their general advice followed by other countries.  I suspect that you will see all the things you call for happening in due course but taking half of the workforce out for childcare for 14 weeks would lead to a lot of us starving even without the virus. All the borders are closing there will be no food imports soon. 

I think your assertion is an over-reaction but I retain an open mind.

 

The government has changed its mind if it is not talking about herd immunity because it was a few days ago.


I realize that such things as tracing and testing are limited but I do not get why they are not restricting gatherings and closing places like cinemas, that to me is common sense? Such places as well as schools and universities are factories for such viruses and while it is hard other countries have done it and managed it, opening facilities for parents who can not manage to find child care. It has to be done sooner or later.

Why is the death toll from the virus so high in the UK, compared with countries like Germany, Switzerland, Sweden?

I believe most of the countries that have closed their boarders are still allowing cargo flights, ships and trucks to cross their boarders although Poland and Ukraine have banned Russian trucks transiting their territory?

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closing schools and then opening childcare centres seems rather pointless. might as well keep the schools open but just for those who cannot get childcare., amounts to the same thing.

 

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Seems the Italians have decided to allow Doctors to play God, by writing off those aged 80 or over.  Meanwhile, international travel continues world wide; 30,000 Brits are trapped in Spain - 

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Well, i class myself  as a typical man in the street & i am now sick to the back teeth of the worst case scenarios being peddled across the news networks. No wonder we have panic buying & the way these purveyors of misery are carrying on we will soon be having  panic in society & rioting on the streets.

I think a good starting point for the NHS in this crisis though would be to stop the required targets for GPs set by Labour a few years ago & up the patient throughput in doctor's surgeries.

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