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Observer II

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Well one Brexit Day has just gone;  still no agreement by MPs; so perhaps it's better if they have a recess until the 12th April, then we can finally LEAVE  the EU ?

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2 hours ago, Observer II said:

Well one Brexit Day has just gone;  still no agreement by MPs; so perhaps it's better if they have a recess until the 12th April, then we can finally LEAVE  the EU ?

You still don't get it do you? Treeza takes democracy very seriously unlike old Corbyn. She has been told not to allow no deal by Parliament and it doesn't matter that a bunch of the awkward squad in the ERG would like it to happen, remember what John Major called the same group of people. She has been told that Parliament will look for a way forward so she has to let that happen and see if it works on Monday. However she will not allow a second referendum if she can help it, my guess is to protect Scotland from the SNP terrorists. She doesn't want EP elections but she has no democratic reason for that. However if the reason for a delay will definitely lead to a second referendum then she has nowhere to go.

People are suggesting that means a General Election but that would mean no effective head of state to discuss the delay with the EU Council, she probably won't let that happen. Since the process will have come to nought she will have to take the blame for a final executive action that does not require the approval of Parliament. That looks like revocation as Rees-Mogg, who appears not to be blinded by dogma, worked out today when he voted for the withdrawal agreement. Remember Treeza is a remainer so if she has to decide because no-one else has, within the constraints that she has then revoke is the only honourable course. It leaves her successor the option to use the Vienna Convention at a later time, Article 50 was a terrible mistake and not the negotiation for the most part.

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I think the main problem has been that  not all MPs  respected the wishes of their constituents. 

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😆  "Treeza takes democracy very seriously"   - best one I've heard yet, in all the limp excuses radiating from the HoC !    They were given a mandate by a referendum by a majority of the people to LEAVE the EU, which the two major Parties promised to honour, in a subsequent G/Election, supported by 80% of the electorate.   This they have failed to do - partly because of a ham fisted cakeist negotiation by the PM, but mainly because a Remainer majority of the HoC have chosen to ignore the electorate and having tried 8 alternatives, can't even reach a majority on alternative means of achieving their mandate IE to LEAVE the EU. So much for "democracy".    Cromwell's speech to Parliament, prior to bringing Col Pride in to clear them out; has never been more appropriate.  Alas, no surprise to some of us, as we said in posts at the time of the referendum,  it is the nature of our so-called democracy and the reality of how we are governed; now stripped bare for all to see.

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The terms of the referendum were very clear - in or out. Not "if you vote out shall we start negotiating terms with the EU bureaucracy under which they might (or might not) allow us to leave"? Pathetic from the government parliament of the once Great Britain. the whole world must be watching with amazement at how we are being humiliated.

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Obs,

Have you read this? If not I recommend it. The fundamental fault lies with Cameron and his totally amateurish approach, La, La, La, it can't happen....Then those who pushed for Article 50 to be submiited should take some blame too and they were brexiters..

 

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Cameron's intention was to finally resolve (using the people) a schism (mainly in the Tory Party) that had existed for most of our 40 year membership.  The idea being to finally silence the Brexit insurgency and settle the matter of our membership. They, and indeed the political establishment fully expected Remain to win, however, as we now know, a huge miscalculation.  Both main political Parties then had to re-calibrate their relationship with the electorate and opted for pro-Brexit manifestos; although Labour kept theirs rather vague and continued (as the mood became less clear) to try to be all things to all men.   But they both stated clearly "that they would honour the decision of the British people";  and all their MPs were elected on that basis in the G/Election.  The majority of MPs then went on to vote in support of article 50 , and what followed was 3 years of incompetent negotiations by the  PM, clearly in the naive belief that they could cherry pick the good bits of the EU, whilst rejecting the bad.   What they failed to recognise, is that they were dealing with a rules based organisation that constitutionally couldn't allow cakeism. Add to this their motivation in holding the rest of the EU together by making Brexit as punitive as possible, to discourage others.; and it was evident from the beginning that a "no deal" position was the only way that any concessions from the EU would be possible.  Following this mess, the PM came back with a deal, basically dictated by the EU, that involved a £36billion payment for nothing, with the afterthought of a permanent legally binding backstop over the customs union and Irish border.  Then we had the farce of a Parliament deliberately sabotaging any possibilty of "a deal",  for purist or party political reasons.   Fundementally however, we have a Brexit decision by the electorate, now being sold out by a pro-EU Parliament.  Given that we can't expect this pro-Remain Parliament to honour the referendum, it would now seem that the only way forward would be a G/Election - but as the electorate still appear split, it may not resolve matters either.  

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Unfortunately, a general election will not be fought on in/out of the EU. It will be fought on domestic issues so will provide no solution to the Brexit impasse. The only reason Jezza harps on about a GE is because he wants  the keys to number 10 in order to implement his Marxist policies.

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Sorry Dave, can't see it that way: Brexit has taken the oxygen out of every other political issue since the referendum; so no progress on anything can be made unless and until it is finalised one way or the other; I'm sure the majority of electors will realise this, and vote accordingly, giving leave voters one of possibly two options. Of course Corbyn and Co will wheel out the money tree and promise all things to all men, plus something like an all pay, no say - Norway option for Brexit (which isn't Brexit).  However, I will concede that electoral opinion can be notoriously  fickle !

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9 hours ago, Observer II said:

Sorry Dave, can't see it that way: Brexit has taken the oxygen out of every other political issue since the referendum; so no progress on anything can be made unless and until it is finalised one way or the other; I'm sure the majority of electors will realise this, and vote accordingly, giving leave voters one of possibly two options. Of course Corbyn and Co will wheel out the money tree and promise all things to all men, plus something like an all pay, no say - Norway option for Brexit (which isn't Brexit).  However, I will concede that electoral opinion can be notoriously  fickle !

Well it didn't work last time and I am convinced Davy is right and the morons will just protest against something again. There isn't a constructive thought in many heads these days, I suppose it takes too much effort and exhausts their attention spans.

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I think the only way a GE could work is if it was a extraordinary one with an in /out manifesto with the preferences of all candidates shown on ballot papers. The ensuing Parliament would have to be for a fixed term of say 6 months just to sort out Brexit  with MPs given the voice of the voters. Once the fixed term was up have another election for a full term Parliament to sort out the country.

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Sounds like an option Dave; but given the arrogant disdain by the political establishment and others, for the electorate; can't see them allowing it.  We may stumble into another snap election, where the main Parties would need to coalesce  around definitive policies, and purge non-conformists; in which case, clear alternatives would present themselves.  As for extending the time limit,  I can't see that making any difference to the current impasse, other than allowing Farage and Co to swarm into the EU Parliament.

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All May had to do was - nothing. She was not legally obliged to ask for an extension, and if she hadn't we would have left with No Deal.

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Spot on Asp;  but all the Remainers are terrified of a "no deal" Brexit;  it would require confidence in the Nation's ability to cope; and if it relies on our political Leaders  - WE may be excused having a lack of confidence, in their ability to cope..

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53 minutes ago, asperity said:

Scaremongering drivel. If the parties want to negotiate something else and they do so there is nothing to stop them. The current pressure for no deal is very unhealthy and the reported behaviour of Steve Baker is quite beyond the pale, if not a little unhinged.

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Well, we've now got Labour coalescing around the Norway model:  which simply means staying in the EU with all it's financial and free movement implications, but with no political input in the Council of Ministers or EU Parliament - Norway = All pay and no say; even worse than REMAIN.  No doubt the EU would relish this model, as it removes the irritant Brits from setting the rules, whilst having to comply with them, plus still funding the EU with £billions.   So, cut the cakeism, it's either stay or go, a binary choice - we just need politicians with the guts to take that decision, and get this farce sorted.

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Let's hope so !    😉      We're now hearing that a "no deal" Brexit will tip the German economy into a recession, with their car makers already being stung by lower sales in China and the US; French, Spanish and Dutch farmers watching their produce rot in fields (if we believe the Remoan propaganda); and the Republic of Ireland turned into a trapped and isolated economy.  So no deal won't be the apocalypse the Remoaner scaremongers threaten,  the markets will adapt in order to survive and life will go on.   

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Arguably the "mayhem" already exists in Parliament, by the very people we would be relying on IF mayhem occured.   Once a Prime Minister of this Country promised it's citizens "blood, sweat and toil",  that generation didn't shrink from the challenge, and neither should we.

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But Obs that was to defend our country, you appear to be deliberately trying to cause the trouble. Churchill wanted the Common Market and he would not have approved of your point of view.

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3 minutes ago, asperity said:

Churchill supported the idea of a Common Market to stop France and Germany going to war with each other, but he didn't want the UK to be a part of it!

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926

You are right but my point was that supporting damage to the EU members as Obs did would not heave been supported by him and that is what said and meant.

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To be honest Confused, if anyone is causing damage to the EU it's the EU bureaucrats themselves. They're the ones that are being intransigent here. When cameron went to them before the referendum looking for some sign that they would be willing to reform, to pull back from their ever closer union plan, they treated him with such disdain and disrespect it was embarassing. I hold no truck for Cameron as I think he was as weak and vacillating as Brown before him and May afterwards, but that threw down the gauntlet to the British electorate, so it's no wonder the referendum went the way it did. Our problem is that the political elite in this country don't want to be the ones to make decisions. If you think Tory austerity is bad, wait until we get EU austerity Greek style!

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