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Observer II

Who's fault ?

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In 2016 "the people" were asked to make a decision on Brexit, they were passed the ball by Parliament and HMG; "the people" made a decision and the delivery on that decision then rested with HMG and Parliament. Now, after 2 years of inept negotiating by HMG  and intransigence by the EU; we have a Parliament in total disarray, pulling in all directions and with a growing intent to pass the buck again with a second referendum.  Well, we gave them a decision, which was to LEAVE the EU, followed up with an election of the two major Parties committed to fulfilling their Brexit mandates. But alas, they appear incapable of fulfilling their mandates, and appear to wish to pass the buck back to us.  Sorry, but if your not capable of fulfilling your mandates, the only question for "the people" is to elect a set of politicians that can.  So rather than another referendum, it would seem the sensible resolution is a G/Election,  where the Parties can set out their positions clearly in their manifestos, then "the people" can decide who they believe.

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The problem is that now the politicians have proved beyond doubt that they wouldn't recognise the truth if it bit them on the backside why should anyone believe their manifesto promises this time?

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Does anybody EVER believe what a politician says they are going to do prior to getting elected?

Take Helen Jones,  only ever seems to pop up every couple of weeks saying "I back (insert appropriate cause here)" or "I denounce (insert appropriate topic here)" , with the photoshopped picture of her staring blankly into the distance with the Westminster clock tower in the background and a Ferris wheel. No real story just a statement supporting/denouncing whatever. Think it comes under the heading of keeping in the public eye and look like you are doing something.

If the government were a family even Jeremy kyle would not be able to sort them out. Mind you he would be in employment for life trying.🤣

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A general election would not be fought on EU membership alone. A host of other subjects would  come into play which is where May took bad advice in her last GE fiasco & naively believed Brexit would be the only topic under discussion. Domestic issues would muddy the waters & could well produce a Labour government.

The negotiations should have taken a route of more assertiveness from the UK from the outset ,respectfully but assertively setting out our demands & requirements , instead of playing second fiddle to the cartel.

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Agree Dave, but that's not where we are: we've got a PM playing for time, to save her botched deal; being hounded by shyster MPs committed to ignoring the referendum result - so those MPs need cleaning out imo.

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The people have chosen to leave the EU in a democratic vote and it is now up to the Government of the day to fulfill the peoples wishes irrespective of political persuasion.

The only way that May was ever going to achieve the best deal possible for the UK was with the support of all the political parties irrespective of Political Policies and their own opinions on `Brexit or Remain`. As soon as the knives were out within the government an across other political parties we gave the EU the upper hand in any future negotiations.

The only persons responsible for this mess now are the ones who didn`t support the Prime Minister and show a united front for the UK as a whole in fulfilling the wishes of the majority vote.

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8 hours ago, Observer II said:

Agree Dave, but that's not where we are: we've got a PM playing for time, to save her botched deal; being hounded by shyster MPs committed to ignoring the referendum result - so those MPs need cleaning out imo.

You obviously haven't looked at the Momentum members view on Brexit, not many of the probable new broom's MPs seem likely to take your view. Betting on Labour to make things better for you is a forlorn hope.

Anyway your idea of having dictated to the EU over the trade position was always a non-starter because Article 50 expressly provides only for the withdrawal agreement and a trade deal framework before we leave. I know you wanted more but it was chasing unicorns; the current deal was all we could get before leaving. No deal didn't need negotiating just stubbornness would have done. If no deal is what you really want you will not get the House of Commons, now or in the near future, to agree with you.

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Momentum have a lot on their plate if they want a clear out - too many Bliarites still; so Labour was never on my score card.  Whether the Tories could eject their refuse - I've no idea. Which would basically leave UKIP as the only LEAVE (no deals) option, for all those Leave voting constituencies.  Think "no deal" delivers LEAVE by default, leave the customs union, the single market and the ECJ, with no strings attached. May would seem to be playing for time in order to force a choice, her deal or the cliff edge; so the Titanic remains on course while the politicians argue in the bar !   btw it's not me they need to agree with but the 52% they are ignoring.

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Well, it appears the "minority" Parties; the ones that supported REMAIN in the G/Election, and got slaughtered at the ballot box; have tabled a no confidence vote against the Gov; no doubt hoping to suck in Labour support.  Puts Corbyn on the spot, as if such a motion was carried, it would mean a G/Election and Labour would have to declare their policy on Brexit to the electorate.  With Dianne Abbot now supporting the idea of another referendum, perhaps she could count the votes !  😉

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Personally cannot see the point in having another referendum. If they can't abide by the first one why should they abide by a second.

We could end up with a weekly referendum on that basis.

Now a referendum that puts a vote of no confidence in the government by the people as the agenda would be more interesting.

The odd thing is that with all the sniping and backbiting going on i have yet to hear anybody say that they can get a better deal or even hint at it.

I have now got to the point that whenever anybody starts on about brexit to me i first ask one question. "Did you vote in the referendum" on the few occasions that they have said no i have then told them that they then have no say on brexit matters.( occasionally i will get somebody who was too young to vote at the time and do make allowances for that")

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On 12/18/2018 at 9:18 AM, Davy51 said:

 

The negotiations should have taken a route of more assertiveness from the UK from the outset ,respectfully but assertively setting out our demands & requirements , instead of playing second fiddle to the cartel.

We and the Allies liberated Europe and rebuilt it's infrastructure and economies in the 1940/50's at great cost.

What thanks have we ever had?

And now THEY are dictating to us how to run our affairs !!!!!

We should just walk ,enough is enough.

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