Peoples vote ?

[Evil Sid]

But that was always going to happen with the EU. Any contributing member wanting to get out will face the same sort of backlash from the EU.

"if you thought being in was bad just wait until you see what's in store for you when you try to get out" was always going to be the stance. "The EU need us more than we need them" Was the cry from the leave camp, "Were all doomed" was always going to be the cry from the remain camp. "bleah" is the cry from the apathy camp. "this is great for sales" is the cry from the media no matter what. The none voters have no say at all.

I cast my vote when asked to. Which way i voted is of no consequence. The votes were tallied and the result was announced.I will abide by that result whether i agree that it is right or wrong. The practicalities of what sort of deal we make with the EU is very complex. Ministers have the ultimate responsibility for it but it is the civil servants who do all the "leg" work and "advise " the ministers. (civil servants that at lower levels do not change with the elected government, mainly because they are the only ones who know where the coffee machine refills are and such).

If i feel sorry for anything it will be those out of work mep's. Ministers may resign their position but they still have a job in the gov, us plebs would have to sign on and start looking for new employment elsewhere.

[Observer II]

As most of us said from the beginning, it's Hotel California and anyone trying to escape will be humiliated in order to keep the rest in line. We can see the way the Brussels dictatorship operates, with their actions against Poland and Hungary, and now Italy; amazingly these countries are prepared to tolerate it - must be they're net recipients of EU funding. From the beginning the Gov has suffered from "cakeism",  believing that an organisation founded on strict rules will bend them to suit the UK. Well this is their final offer, it's take it or leave it; and it's time Labour and the SNP woke up to the fact that it cannot be improved with 6 pie in the sky "tests".  Leaving means - leaving the customs union, the single market and the ECJ;  and if that means a hard border in Ireland - so be it.  Yes it will mean initial hardship and confusion, but if our civil servants get off their butts and prepare for the worst, we'll overcome those difficulties.  You can't make omlettes without cracking eggs.   Now if MPs vote down the PM's plan, it leaves us crashing out next March, and in my opinion, that's fine, just get on with it.  

[P J]

yet another Brexiteer numpty who doesn't really seem to get it.    

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nadie-dorries-slams-brexit-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html?fbclid=IwAR0OD8AlBaeEEAz2p83fP01Z6oVzHvud3wjXYQPYp66vVXg6kclMqjnDkMs

[P J]

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1975 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.

[Davy51]

Democracy has already been thwarted. The people's  vote of 2016 has been betrayed by the civil servants & it is doubtful that any of the Brexiteers actually have the bottle to seize the poisoned chalice from Mrs May. The democratic will of the people has been ignored.

[P J]

2 hours ago, Davy51 said:

Democracy has already been thwarted. The people's  vote of 2016 has been betrayed by the civil servants & it is doubtful that any of the Brexiteers actually have the bottle to seize the poisoned chalice from Mrs May. The democratic will of the people has been ignored.

so how would you like your omelette lol

 

Democracy was thwarted when the leave campaign lied and cheated on spending.

[Observer II]

Dave, I don't know any "Brexiteers" that wanted anything out of the EU cake;  the cake obsession has been led by a Remoaner PM and her advisors, trying to please both sides.   Last hope is for Parliament to vote this surrender document down and prepare for no deal or for the Spanish to veto the deal .  

[Confused52]

Sorry Obs but I really do not agree. The disruption caused by No deal is tantamount to self harm. The current deal is not at all a bad one and I cannot see why I am hearing all this macho rubbish from both sides. The behaviour of the EU during these negotiations has been reprehensible and show that we should not stay in their club. However that is not enough of a reason to crash and burn into penury. Both of the sides of this argument need to get real and resume normal grown up British pragmatism. The present political debate is childish. No one voted for a hard Brexit they voted to leave and they didn't know the terms. To claim any one didn't vote for this or that Brexit is absurd, the country as a whole had to negotiate and to not accept what the government has arrived at is just anti-democratic and quite honestly puerile. We all need to pull together to get the best we can out of the lot in the EU and not fight amongst ourselves to make them the winners.

Rant over.

[Davy51]

Obs,i think when the Leave MP  was interviewed on BBC yesterday & came out with the statement that the Brexiteers would "enter a room & only emerge when a leader was found" was a pointer that none would commit to taking up May's job. I could imagine a scenario when a potential leader was asked to step forward that all the savvy ones would step back leaving the dupe in no man's land. I seem to remember Mrs May was left out on such a limb in 2016.

[Observer II]

Con, Have you read Asp's summary of "the deal" on the Brexit Topic ?    I'm sorry, but to me it looks like a surrender document, that far from gaining us freedom, locks us, without a say; into infinite vassalage to Brussels.  Now listening to the Remoaner MPs, it's obvious by their continued reference to THREE options (No deal, May's deal or Remain); that they are trying to construct a three way referendum that will split the Leave vote and keep us in the EU - such is the nature of politicians.   Just for interest, I voted for a "hard" Brexit, there was no mention on the ballot form of any "deals", just LEAVE or REMAIN;   LEAVE won, but it seems the "Dark State" didn't like it. Dave, the Tory squabbles over a Leader won't change the Parliamentary arithmatic in relation to a vote on the deal, and given the lack of anyone with Churchillian gravitas,  changing the PM isn't a solution either.  So, get those civil servants off their butts and into line, and prepare for the worst, while hoping for the best, as we did in 1940.

[Confused52]

It is from the Spectator and much is simplistic and incorrect. In particular the infinite vassalage is poppycock, The binding withdrawal agreement commits the EU to negotiating in good faith and not getting to an agreement for the sake of keeping us in the customs union would not meet that requirement, so we could just walk away under the treaty of Vienna. Another  problem is highlighted in the recitals, which do not form part of the treaty at all.

You didn't vote for a hard Brexit, it wasn't on the ballot paper.

[asperity]

1 hour ago, Confused52 said:

It is from the Spectator and much is simplistic and incorrect. In particular the infinite vassalage is poppycock, The binding withdrawal agreement commits the EU to negotiating in good faith and not getting to an agreement for the sake of keeping us in the customs union would not meet that requirement, so we could just walk away under the treaty of Vienna. Another  problem is highlighted in the recitals, which do not form part of the treaty at all.

You didn't vote for a hard Brexit, it wasn't on the ballot paper.

And do you really believe that shower are actually capable of "negotiating in good faith"? They are doing their best to get the best deal for the EU, nothing more and nothing less. And if they reduce the UK to 3rd world status they will consider their work done. You obviously have too much faith in the honesty of politicians Confused.

As for your "it is from the Spectator" comment, what is that supposed to mean? Are you a Grauniad reader perchance?

[Confused52]

The deal is not as one sided as I expected  I really don't agree with the 3rd world comment because they don't care enough about the UK to bother. They will now turn to dealing with Italy and Hungary after they work out how to get new money to pay off the joiners. Expansion should now stop which is good for European peace. The point is that I don't have any faith in politicians but I also don't assume that they have anything other than national self interest and the UK is a massive market that it would be stupid to destroy.

The comment about the Spectator was to highlight that is written from one point of view just as it would be if it were from the Grauniad or the Independent. I no longer read any newspaper. I used to read the Independent when my other half bought it sometimes but it turned way too left wing for me. I prefer balance which is why I don't listen to the BBC any more as they now behave like the broadcasting arm of the Grauniad but with their own agenda.

[Observer II]

4 hours ago, Confused52 said:

It is from the Spectator and much is simplistic and incorrect. In particular the infinite vassalage is poppycock, The binding withdrawal agreement commits the EU to negotiating in good faith and not getting to an agreement for the sake of keeping us in the customs union would not meet that requirement, so we could just walk away under the treaty of Vienna. Another  problem is highlighted in the recitals, which do not form part of the treaty at all.

You didn't vote for a hard Brexit, it wasn't on the ballot paper.

The term "hard" or "soft" Brexit was invented by the Remoaners, in order to sell the idea of somekind  of half leaving, where we would accumulate the up sides whilst getting rid of the downsides (something Labour still seem to believe), thus the birth of cakeism.  It was only when they introduced it, that I discovered that by voting LEAVE, I was voting for a hard Brexit, complete seperation, and finally independence for the UK; no political dictatorship from unelected Brussels beaurocrats;  no coughing up £10 billion a year to bail out basket case economies in the Balkans wanting to join, no more total incompetance in allowing in illegal migrants, and no more free movement of people from EU States, whether they have a job or not..   The reality is, that ultimately, the pragmatism of the market will sort out the trade issues, as such a large market on their doorstep will not be ignored by German car makers or French, Belgian, Dutch,  and Irish  farmers etc. Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece (all with a large unemployment issue), will not wish to impede the thousands of British tourists visiting their countries either.  The PM has been too timid or has tried the soft option, and the EU has taken advantage all along, walking away will bring them to their senses. 

[asperity]

23 hours ago, Confused52 said:

The deal is not as one sided as I expected  I really don't agree with the 3rd world comment because they don't care enough about the UK to bother. They will now turn to dealing with Italy and Hungary after they work out how to get new money to pay off the joiners. Expansion should now stop which is good for European peace. The point is that I don't have any faith in politicians but I also don't assume that they have anything other than national self interest and the UK is a massive market that it would be stupid to destroy.

The comment about the Spectator was to highlight that is written from one point of view just as it would be if it were from the Grauniad or the Independent. I no longer read any newspaper. I used to read the Independent when my other half bought it sometimes but it turned way too left wing for me. I prefer balance which is why I don't listen to the BBC any more as they now behave like the broadcasting arm of the Grauniad but with their own agenda.

I agree with you on the media, I don't watch the BBC news or buy newspapers any longer either (apart from the BBC local news in the evening which, however, seems to be increasingly obsessed with sob stories about the envy of the world and some overgrown toy bear). But I do pick up links from other websites which lead to interesting articles such as the one in the Spectator which I copied on here. There seems to be very little truth being told to the general populace by anybody at the moment, which is very frightening. But it doesn't bode well for the future. Batten down the hatches and prepare for the storm to come ☠️.

[Evil Sid]

Quote

There seems to be very little truth being told to the general populace by anybody at the moment,

So nothing new there then.

Politician will say what they need to to keep themselves on the gravy train. Just because a minister reigns does not mean that he is on the dole, it just means he doesn't have to do that particular job any more. He still has a job unlike you or me if we had resigned from our job.

Media people need to keep themselves in a job and will peddle anything that they deem as newsworthy adding sensational headlines in a bid to sell their wares. Even at a local level this happens. (probably not on this website ) but same story's on a rival website have some very sensational headline which lead to a five line story with less information than a packet of crisps.

About the only thing that you can say will be true is that "People die".

When it come to things like "THE FUTURE!!!!" at best it is a good guesstimate, at worst mere speculation.

[Observer II]

The problem is, and the main reason for the referendum result, is the arrogant attitude of the political class, who ignore the concerns of the Plebs because they think they know what's best for us;   and they've continued to display these traits in the mess they've made of the so-called negotiations.   

[Confused52]

I do not recall any EU negotiation ending before the last possible moment for years, it is just what they have always done. That does not make it a mess just frustrating they just wait for someone to blink. The negotiations are the way round they are because the Scottish prat Lord Kerr who wrote clause 50 asked the advice of EU lawyers what to write and thought what they said was OK because he did not have the wit to consider how it would affect the UK because of a lack of imagination.

Oh and the main reason for the disgruntlement that caused the leave vote was, in my opinion, the relentless use of grievance politics by the Labour Party in the absence of real policies for decades. They always make out that someone is trying to do the Working Class, or whatever other group they choose, down. It is designed to cause the same effect as in the US mid-terms of a protest vote. This time the protest votes gave us a referendum result and general election result that put us where we are today. I sometimes think that the vote should be restricted to those who have something to lose by making the wrong choice, protest votes should be discouraged.

[Observer II]

As the main beneficiary of the "protest vote" in both the US and throughout Europe, have been the "extreme" right; it doesn't seem to be working too well for Labour and the left, does it. The establishment use the terms "extreme right or left" and "populism", when referring to  the reaction of the Plebs;  but I thought populism was the essence of democracy, people supporting popular policies. Perhaps we could return to a pre- Peterloo era, when those "with something to lose" didn't have to take the risk of losing it !     😉

[asperity]

3 hours ago, Confused52 said:

I do not recall any EU negotiation ending before the last possible moment for years, it is just what they have always done. That does not make it a mess just frustrating they just wait for someone to blink. The negotiations are the way round they are because the Scottish prat Lord Kerr who wrote clause 50 asked the advice of EU lawyers what to write and thought what they said was OK because he did not have the wit to consider how it would affect the UK because of a lack of imagination.

Oh and the main reason for the disgruntlement that caused the leave vote was, in my opinion, the relentless use of grievance politics by the Labour Party in the absence of real policies for decades. They always make out that someone is trying to do the Working Class, or whatever other group they choose, down. It is designed to cause the same effect as in the US mid-terms of a protest vote. This time the protest votes gave us a referendum result and general election result that put us where we are today. I sometimes think that the vote should be restricted to those who have something to lose by making the wrong choice, protest votes should be discouraged.

Who is going to decide pre vote what a protest vote is? Oh, sorry Confused you have decided to be the arbiter, that's okay then I'll shut up. I know my place master 🤣🤣

[Confused52]

Asp, no need to be narky. Protest votes are rather unguided and I can object if I want, same right as the protest voters but without the dreadful side effects!

[P J]

14 hours ago, asperity said:

Who is going to decide pre vote what a protest vote is? Oh, sorry Confused you have decided to be the arbiter, that's okay then I'll shut up. I know my place master 🤣🤣

In the same way you are self appointed arbiter of what is truth in the media I suppose?  🤣🤣

[P J]

Seems no matter what happens and what deal or no deal we end up with , the country will be worse off than it was in the EU.  Still we will all get a nice shiny blue passport (printed in the EU)

[Observer II]

41 minutes ago, Confused52 said:

Asp, no need to be narky. Protest votes are rather unguided and I can object if I want, same right as the protest voters but with out the dreadful side effects!

Democracy can be extremely inconvienient, as Socrates discovered !      😉

[Observer II]

Just a thought: if we do finish up with "a people's vote", shouldn't the question be - do you accept the PM's deal OR no deal ?   Given that we've already voted to LEAVE.