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Bill

WBC You're joking!

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A few weeks ago we were discussing why a lot of people didn't like to going into Warrington in the evening (See the give Warrington Town Centre a chance thread).  I said at that time that I'd stopped visiting the town because I was uncomfortable with the parking situation.

Having previously twice fallen foul of the late night clampers, we decided to play safe and use the councils new market car park and with the fires still burning on Saddlworth More and Winter Hill we thought it would be good to go up the top floor to get the best view. Other than a very small handull of cars right at the bottom, the place was completely deserted but rather than drive back there, we parked right up on level six just so that we could try out the new lift.

Two and a half hours later we returned and paid just £1 which we thought was an absolute bargain, that was at least until we found the sixty pound sticker on the window.

Anyone care to guess why?
 
 
Bill
(     ^ Please note, no smiley face on this one!)

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Got it in one Sid well done!    Not parked straight enough.


I might have parked a bit straighter but someone had been cleaning pigeon muck up and made an even bigger mess so the lines weren't exactly visible to me when I parked, not that I thought it that important on a completely empty car park.


The staff there said it might seem ridiculous but if they didn't issue a ticket and their superiors spotted it on the CCTV then their jobs could be on the line. She said they had photographic evidence to back up the fact that the wheels were over the line so maybe the soap suds dried up by then.  I've not seen the picture but it'd be interesting to see if it shows the mess or the none existent warning signs for a wet floor or indeed the brush left lying on the floor!


Just three weeks ago my xx year old wife slipped on a wet floor and broke her arm so now arm still in cast, she's absolutely paranoid about slipping again. So do we make a big issue about the unmarked slip and trip hazards here? No we use common sense and take a bit of care because in this instance given the place is empty, warning signs like bay markings are just not that important

So Sid question 2 is multiple choice. Do I

A Pay the fine 

B Go through the rigmarole of contesting it against photographic evidence.

C Go mega public and make WBC look like uncaring idiots? (Done this before ((before social media)) and they really really didn't like it)


.Bill

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since it is multiple choice it would have to be C followed by A after a decent period of arguing the point.

I got a parking ticket outside my own house. had the resident parking permit on display on the dashboard. warden came round and slapped a ticket over the top of it on the windscreen and then took a picture. Was not best pleased about that. wouldn't have minded if the permit had slipped off but it was on prominent display on a piece of white card the size of a cd case. appealed it and when i got their photo was so annoyed that i had to go for a long walk to calm down before replying. not only had he stuck the ticket over the permit but had taken his evidence picture from a low angle so all you could see was the edge of the card.

Their comment was that it was not properly displayed. end result had to pay. now every time i see that particular warden i toot my horn to him and wave.( usually from about two foot away.especially if he is on his rev a rip scooter)

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A completely empty car park and you still can't get your car in a space properly,  no sympathy just poor driving.

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Sid
I'm not sure what I'll do at the moment as saving the world and decorating is taking up a lot of my time. I didn't  know it was actually a finable offence to not park quite straight but that's not what upsets me, it's the fact that it's just so completely unnecessary. If the council are so hard up that they need to resort to this sort of behaviour, then maybe paying the fine might help with their hardship, even if it's only to keep one of their jobsworths in employment.


Bill :)
 

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If it was me Bill I'd rant and rave on the media sites and also across social networking too and I wouldn't pay the fine.  Although saying that I don't think I'd have parked over the white lines in an near empty carpark but then again I am quite paranoid about parking within the bays in spaces anywhere probably cos one of out car does only just fit.

In your case if the lines weren't clearly visible then you should deffo contest it but then again without any photo evidence you might fail:(  Surely the ticket slappers should show some leniency in a near empty carpark.

Some years back I saw a WBC traffic warden slapping a ticket on a car in the lower Stockton Heath Forge car park (near the church end).  I asked why he was ticketing the car and he said the wheel was over the white line.  It was the ONLY car in the lower car park for god sake.  I was disgusted and told the jobsworth that.  I have also seen them ticket another lonesome car for not displaying a ticket and the elderly person was so upset as the penalty was half their weeks pension but once written they said it couldn't be cancelled. 

I sometimes wish  I was a parking enforcement  officer as I'd use my brain cells and if someone deserved to be ticketed they would get one but like in your case on an empty car park  or just a mistake I would turn a blind eye as everyone can make the odd mistake. 

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Now now Miss Dizzy, thou knows the rules agi'n talking sense. Now go to thy room and think on't. <_<

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Dizzy
I have made an appeal and requested that before they make any decission they take a look at the CCTV footage showing the conditions at the time I parked.

The thing that annoys me the most is that under normal circumstances I go out of may way to park legally with care and consideration for others to the point where many would say I go a bit OTT but that'll have no bearing here.

I'll just have to wait and see what happens but I hope that my faith might in our legal system will be lifted slightly if it's thrown out as a totally overzealous use of enforcement.
 
Either way I think I this episode needs to be seen by as many people as possible in order to make them aware that these fines are real and council staff will continue to issue tickets irrespective of how petty or ridiculous it may seem.
 
Bill :) 
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or as a lesson in what happens if you can't or won't park properly

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30 minutes ago, P J said:

or as a lesson in what happens if you can't or won't park properly

Ever thought about moving to North Korea PJ, I think the regime would suit you perfectly?

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Some years ago I had forgotten to display a disability badge after parking in a disability bay that was completely empty (it was 5.30). I realized my mistake having walked a 100 or so yards away i returned to find a traffic warden issuing a ticket. Appeal was refused, I eventually paid £30 (half of £60)

Dizzy, you would never ever get a job in WBC, common sense is not allowed. That is why the people on top in councils get paid so much because people with absolute no common sense are so hard to find.

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19 hours ago, Milky said:

Some years ago I had forgotten to display a disability badge after parking in a disability bay that was completely empty (it was 5.30). I realized my mistake having walked a 100 or so yards away i returned to find a traffic warden issuing a ticket. Appeal was refused, I eventually paid £30 (half of £60)

Dizzy, you would never ever get a job in WBC, common sense is not allowed. That is why the people on top in councils get paid so much because people with absolute no common sense are so hard to find.

The Forge is obviously targeted as an income source. The same rigorous regime is not applied in other council owned car parks nor in the rest of Stockton Heath, for example with the people who think Sainsbury's is a drive-in shop. The common sense of the wardens doesn't come into it. 

I remember Cllr Mundry saying that The Forge is run the way it is to enhance the experience of motorists or some such BS. Funnily enough he hasn't yet decided to enhance the experience for the car park in his own ward. 

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21 hours ago, Milky said:

Ever thought about moving to North Korea PJ, I think the regime would suit you perfectly?

No I’m happy where I am and understand the rules and the reasons we have them.  Have you ever considered the consequencies should we all ignore or flout the rules with impunity?  For a start you would never find a disabled bay in which to park and not display the blue badge thus earning your justified slap on the wrist. One job you had lol

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Well you might then explain why enforcing the requirement to park in the bay only is in the public interest in an almost empty, and by the sound of it about to close car park. They already had the parking fee so the penalty ticket is only needed to discourage behaviour that might stop others from parking but that was evidently not the case. There is a requirement on councils to not treat parking fines as a source of revenue but this case suggests that might well be what was happening here. The rules are there for a reason but when the reason ceases to be applicable why not cease to enforce it. Save the money by not employing the attendant during those hours perhaps. I wouldn't mind betting that the data protection registration for the car park doesn't say that the cameras are to be used to enforce parking controls and rather that they are for crime prevention. Parking over a white line in a car park not being a crime if the parking firm use the footage to take action against their staff or the public for parking infringements they may well be breaking the law.

I agree with Dizzy's underlying point about using common sense, the council just have a bit of a problem with common sense and prefer the officious route.

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when the op chose to use the services provided by the car park they also agreed to abide by a set of rules.  The penalty for not complying were clearly laid out and therefore agreed to by the OP.  As the OP was either too ignorant, arrogant or incompetent to comply with said rules the relevant action was taken and no amount of whining can alter the fact that there is no excuse for being unable or unwilling to park between two white lines on an almost empty car park.  Had the OP simply parked correctly there would be no ticket and no discussion,  simple.

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44 minutes ago, P J said:

when the op chose to use the services provided by the car park they also agreed to abide by a set of rules.  The penalty for not complying were clearly laid out and therefore agreed to by the OP.  As the OP was either too ignorant, arrogant or incompetent to comply with said rules the relevant action was taken and no amount of whining can alter the fact that there is no excuse for being unable or unwilling to park between two white lines on an almost empty car park.  Had the OP simply parked correctly there would be no ticket and no discussion,  simple.

Or he made a harmless mistake. 

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5 hours ago, grey_man said:

Or he made a harmless mistake. 

Oh  he certainly did, and his mistake was rightly penalised.  Man parks inconsiderately and against the rules,  man penalised.  End of story.  Nothing to see here, move along.

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On 7/8/2018 at 9:19 AM, P J said:

No I’m happy where I am and understand the rules and the reasons we have them.  Have you ever considered the consequencies should we all ignore or flout the rules with impunity?  For a start you would never find a disabled bay in which to park and not display the blue badge thus earning your justified slap on the wrist. One job you had lol

Your wrong, if you go into town at 5.30 most of the disabled bays will be available as there is no demand for them yet enforcement continues

In any case we are not talking about flouting or ignoring the rules, we are talking about mistakes and lack of common sense in enforcement  in order to raise income. 

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On 7/9/2018 at 12:13 AM, P J said:

when the op chose to use the services provided by the car park they also agreed to abide by a set of rules.  The penalty for not complying were clearly laid out and therefore agreed to by the OP.  As the OP was either too ignorant, arrogant or incompetent to comply with said rules the relevant action was taken and no amount of whining can alter the fact that there is no excuse for being unable or unwilling to park between two white lines on an almost empty car park.  Had the OP simply parked correctly there would be no ticket and no discussion,  simple.

and the authorities enforcing rules even if these rules make no sense is a good thing?

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4 hours ago, Milky said:

and the authorities enforcing rules even if these rules make no sense is a good thing?

But , if they don't enforce the rules then they will be harangued for not doing so whether they make sense or not.

if the rules make no sense then get them changed, but until they are they must be abided by. You cannot pick and choose which ones you will follow and which you won't otherwise you would have a free for all with regards to what constitutes a sensible or nonsensical rule.

one such that springs to mind was the distance that you had to park next to a kerb. anything over nineteen inches and you could be fined. but the highway code does not specify a distance.

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Nobody's asking for the rules to be changed, they're there for a reason but when that reason dosnt exist or can't be complied with then enforcment of the rule is not only unnessesary it shows a complete lack of common sense. 

Take the hypothetical broken traffic light where common sense say's you need to go through. If you couldn't see the red light, you'd be pretty miffed off if you got a ticket and more so if this happened on a remote uninhabited  Scotish island. If it wasn't for the fact that discrecion exists then fines and penalties would be an everyday part of life for the majority of people.

It's not the rules that need changing Sid, it's the people in power that put pressure on others to ignore common sense in order to justify their employment or to meet revenue targets. 
 
 
Bill :)
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11 hours ago, Evil Sid said:

But , if they don't enforce the rules then they will be harangued for not doing so whether they make sense or not.

if the rules make no sense then get them changed, but until they are they must be abided by. You cannot pick and choose which ones you will follow and which you won't otherwise you would have a free for all with regards to what constitutes a sensible or nonsensical rule.

one such that springs to mind was the distance that you had to park next to a kerb. anything over nineteen inches and you could be fined. but the highway code does not specify a distance.

But they are not enforced at 2am in the morning for example as the enforcers have gone home.

Secondly, There are laws such as cycling on the footpath, indicating and so on that are never enforced.

there are also ancient laws that require hackney cab drivers to carry straw for their horse for example, should that be enforced?

 

 

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Of course they should carry straw for their horse (if they have a horse that is).

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There is a difference between a law and a rule.

Laws tend to be set on a national basis and are enacted in parliament.

By laws are set on a local basis and are set by the local authorities.

Rules are set by whomever writes them and are usually guidelines and open to interpretation by anybody who wants to challenge them or enforce them.

That there is nobody around to enforce the rules at a certain time is irrelevant.(there is no reason why there could not be somebody on duty 24 hours a day enforcing the rules apart from financial ones), When there is somebody around to enforce them they must be seen by public and employers to be enforcing them.

My point was that IF the council or whomever was responsible for enforcement were seen not to be enforcing the rules they would be held up to account by the public. If they do enforce the rules to the letter then they get complaints that they are being over zealous and money grabbing if a fine is issued.

Bill the people in power have to back up their underlings when it comes to a decision made, unless it is a really obvious glaring idiotic decision. If they did not then said underlings would have no confidence in their superiors which would lead to the underlings basically sitting in a room drinking tea all day as their thinking would be "what is the point if everything i do is overturned by the boss."

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