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Gary

Give Warrington town centre a chance!

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36 minutes ago, Confused52 said:

Just to be clear the charges for the Mersey Street Car Park have been published and the free for three hours is pretty clearly a teaser to get people to go to the Market rather than a permanent feature. The current popularity of the Market cannot be judged while that offer is in place. Someone, I think PJ, said cinema attendance was rising. Is it, I wonder, rising enough to justify two multi-screens in the town, or are you expecting Westbrook's Odeon to close?

I imagine people far better qualified and informed than both you and I  will make that decision,  I doubt huge businesses such as Odeon, Vue, Cineworld etc. just take blind punts.  The attendance at cinemas is rising year on year but theatre attendance  dropped  around 10% in the last two years according to  figures published by the British Arts Council.  Bowling alleys are also enjoying a boom in popularity.  I cannot say how long the car park will remain free and doubt you can either but, while it is free, why not try to generate support and custom for our local independent traders in the temp market?  Are you against this?  Even if you buy nothing it takes a minute or two to validate your ticket, or don't bother and pay the fee, your choice.

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9 hours ago, grey_man said:

It's only 'oh dear' if you redefine market stalls as shops and restaurants. Which you've done and for which I've congratulated you for at least making the effort. 

In other news:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jan/19/uks-live-entertainment-industry-hits-new-highs

Oh dear.  So you haven't seen the plans or spoken to anyone concerning the new development.  If you had you would know there are plans for shops, restaurants, retail market with stalls ( if we are being pedantic a "stall " is defined as a temporary structure which the new market shops will not be)  And let me congratulate you on proving my point regarding the increasing popularity of cinemas with the paying public. 

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I have seen the plans. And my opinion is that it's an unambitious identikit development focused on chains. I'm also sticking to my opinion that the area around the council's offices will be dead space in the evenings, apart from the sorts of people you don't want to share that space with.  

I also wonder whether the council now regrets not including a theatre in the development, given that it's going to be an ongoing issue with its cultural 'ambitions'. 

Here's a question for you though and I can predict your response. Why did the council suddenly stop publishing the cost of the development? 
 

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22 minutes ago, grey_man said:

I have seen the plans. And my opinion is that it's an unambitious identikit development focused on chains. I'm also sticking to my opinion that the area around the council's offices will be dead space in the evenings, apart from the sorts of people you don't want to share that space with.  

I also wonder whether the council now regrets not including a theatre in the development, given that it's going to be an ongoing issue with its cultural 'ambitions'. 

Here's a question for you though and I can predict your response. Why did the council suddenly stop publishing the cost of the development? 
 

Sort of shifting the argument here aren't you?  you saw the plans so how did you miss the proposed restaurants therein?  Have you seen or heard any detail regarding the new market areas or are you guessing as to their design?  Does your need to dismiss everything the council do as wrong blinker you?  Quite why we should invest in a third municipal theatre is beyond me, especially as theatre attendances are dropping at 5% per year.  Quite how a locked building becomes a dead space full of ne'r do wells  is another strange opinion but hey ho you are entitled to it, doesn't make it right though. 

Regarding your diversionary question  here's an answer for you, write to the council and ask.

 

 

methinks someone is trying to shift the debate to their favourite hobby horse lol

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15 hours ago, P J said:

its far better than whinging once somethings gone, although you do seem to like doing that :D

I am learning from you PJ :)

15 hours ago, P J said:

do you wear a blind fold as you go around or did you not use the old market much?  There were many special events at the old market most of which were covered by the Warrington Worldwide.  If you ever went down underneath the old place it was a stinking mess.  So you want the town to be preserved in aspic rather than develop and move on because it appeals to your sense of nostalgia?  The new temporary market is just that, temporary  and thriving.   The plans and ideas for the new one are really quite exciting.  Do yourself a favour, next time you can park in the shiny new carpark for free and pop into the temp market for a look around,  maybe you could even buy something and help support a local trader, its far better than whinging once somethings gone, although you do seem to like doing that :D

I have already put down, be it in the Manx Arm thread, an argument why demolishing buildings should be avoided and there is nostalgia too!

I admit I have not been going into town centre much in recent  years, time was I used to go into the market at least weekly, then the stalls started shutting down, fewer people came so more shut down.

The temp market is substantially smaller, so will the new one. However I must have missed something what will be different about the new market as opposed to the old one apart for it being shiny and new. It won't be shiny and new in a few years time, will be getting replaced with a new one?

Yet to hear a reason why the old boots building could not be used as a new market?

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Milky said:

I am learning from you PJ :)

I have already put down, be it in the Manx Arm thread, an argument why demolishing buildings should be avoided and there is nostalgia too!

I admit I have not been going into town center much in recent  years, time was I used to go into the market at least weekly, then the stalls started shutting down, fewer people came so more shut down.

The temp market is substantially smaller, so will the new one. However I must have missed something what will be different about the new market as opposed to the old one apart for it being shiny and new. It won't be shiny and new in a few years time, will be getting replaced with a new one?

Yet to hear a reason why the old boots building could not be used as a new market?

 

 

 

So demolishing buildings should be avoided as it causes pollution?  You dont go to town centre much yet want it kept just how you like it, just in case you  decide to visit. You moan about parking costs even when free parking is available in 2 town centre car parks.  Yes the temp market is smaller but the new one will be much larger than they have now, and its doing fine.  Youi didn't even know that the old market put on special events and theme days even though did so for years and continues to do so.  I suspect you aren't speaking from a very informed position at all and just like a whinge.

p.s. the old Boots building was totally unsuitable as a new market for many reasons.

p.p.s. I'm not the one whinging about a dilapidated old pub building, that you didn't even use, being demolished.

 

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2 hours ago, P J said:

So demolishing buildings should be avoided as it causes pollution?  You dont go to town centre much yet want it kept just how you like it, just in case you  decide to visit. You moan about parking costs even when free parking is available in 2 town centre car parks.  Yes the temp market is smaller but the new one will be much larger than they have now, and its doing fine.  Youi didn't even know that the old market put on special events and theme days even though did so for years and continues to do so.  I suspect you aren't speaking from a very informed position at all and just like a whinge.

p.s. the old Boots building was totally unsuitable as a new market for many reasons.

p.p.s. I'm not the one whinging about a dilapidated old pub building, that you didn't even use, being demolished.

 

 you rant and make statements of opinion with no facts to back them up and just repeat them.

You have addressed non of the points made such as what has changed that will make the new market a success, a cinema that will mostly operate when the market is closed?

So what if I do not go into Warrington a lot these days, why does that exclude me having an opinion, I pay taxes, what happens if ut is a white elephant will you underwrite the project PJ? Do the various EU, National and Local government policies on pollution exclude me because I do not go into Warrington town centre?

 

 

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3 hours ago, P J said:

Sort of shifting the argument here aren't you?  you saw the plans so how did you miss the proposed restaurants therein? 

 

 

methinks someone is trying to shift the debate to their favourite hobby horse lol

It is a proposed restaurant, there used to be a restaurant  by the cinema at Westbrook too.

How do you know it won't become a Nando's or similar?

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5 hours ago, Milky said:

It is a proposed restaurant, there used to be a restaurant  by the cinema at Westbrook too.

How do you know it won't become a Nando's or similar?

your ill informed response leads me to believe that you haven't even seen the plans let alone thought about them.

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9 hours ago, Milky said:

 you rant and make statements of opinion with no facts to back them up and just repeat them.

You have addressed non of the points made such as what has changed that will make the new market a success, a cinema that will mostly operate when the market is closed?

So what if I do not go into Warrington a lot these days, why does that exclude me having an opinion, I pay taxes, what happens if ut is a white elephant will you underwrite the project PJ? Do the various EU, National and Local government policies on pollution exclude me because I do not go into Warrington town centre?

 

 

So you want to ban all demolition on the grounds of it causing pollution ( a miniscule amount of what actually does pollute the worlds environment) ,  what next then following that rational, ban cars, buses, trains,, flights,manufacturing, fishing and farming to name but a few far more serious polluters.  good god you would even have to stop farting.  You have no idea about the new market or its proposed opening hours or you wouldn't make such ignorant assumptions.  I recall someone on here years back declaring before it even opened that Liverpool One  would be the biggest financial failure in history ( can't remember who)  and now look at the place, a triumph.  You don't go into town, you don't look the facts of what you are complaining about yet you expect your opinion to be accepted as valid and pertinent when , as you have proved, its just negative whinging. Go look up shadenfreude

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More than 80 responses to my initial post and still going strong! May be I should post more often! :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, P J said:

So you want to ban all demolition on the grounds of it causing pollution ( a miniscule amount of what actually does pollute the worlds environment) ,  what next then following that rational, ban cars, buses, trains,, flights,manufacturing, fishing and farming to name but a few far more serious polluters.  good god you would even have to stop farting.  You have no idea about the new market or its proposed opening hours or you wouldn't make such ignorant assumptions.  I recall someone on here years back declaring before it even opened that Liverpool One  would be the biggest financial failure in history ( can't remember who)  and now look at the place, a triumph.  You don't go into town, you don't look the facts of what you are complaining about yet you expect your opinion to be accepted as valid and pertinent when , as you have proved, its just negative whinging. Go look up shadenfreude

PJ, I hope the new market, cinema and most importantly the new council office are a great success. Yet I will point out something your ignoring, the business model for the market has not changed unless I am missing something, it is just moving into new premises.

Yes demolishing and replacing just one building causes minuscule amount of pollution, so does my car therefore traffic pollution can not be a problem.

Off topic - Yes I do have a problem with manufacturing actually,, I disagree strongly with shipping things half way across the world just because it is a little cheaper to manufacture them in some sweat shop in a third world country.

Not so long ago there was a program on TV (I think it was Newsnight or something) following a Vauxhall engine, which originates in Germany, gets brought over to the UK for a process to be added, then gets taken somewhere else think it was Switzerland then Italy before coming back to the UK to be fitted into a new car, nuts!

I also find it hard to swallow that I am being told to get on the bus while some people are going to work in helicopters and privet jets, fuel tax free and that is OK, or that might just be jealousy :)

 

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Vauxhall does it that way because it's vastly more expensive doing it that way obviously! :rolleyes:

It's a bit disingenuous to suggest it is ONE engine that is being moved from place to place. It will be loads of engines being transported all at once, it's called economy of scale. It's easier to move the engines to different workshops than to move different workshops to an engine.

It seems that you're also against 3rd world countries dragging themselves out of poverty by manufacturing goods for the rest of the world. This is the way wealth is being distributed accross the globe and not concentrated in small parts of it, and is the reason why worldwide poverty is being overcome.

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Milky, I'm not even going to try to pick up all the nonsense in that post, I think the best bet for you is to carry on never going to town and let the people who use it enjoy the improvements, preferably whine free .  

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53 minutes ago, asperity said:

Vauxhall does it that way because it's vastly more expensive doing it that way obviously! :rolleyes:

It's a bit disingenuous to suggest it is ONE engine that is being moved from place to place. It will be loads of engines being transported all at once, it's called economy of scale. It's easier to move the engines to different workshops than to move different workshops to an engine.

It seems that you're also against 3rd world countries dragging themselves out of poverty by manufacturing goods for the rest of the world. This is the way wealth is being distributed accross the globe and not concentrated in small parts of it, and is the reason why worldwide poverty is being overcome.

 I understand, but you would think the UK has a large enough car industry to have it done locally.

Not at all, there is no reason why the third world can not manufacture for its own markets.

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1 hour ago, P J said:

Milky, I'm not even going to try to pick up all the nonsense in that post, I think the best bet for you is to carry on never going to town and let the people who use it enjoy the improvements, preferably whine free .  

Because you can't.

In order for the market and regeneration to work it needs to attract more people into the town if you don't nothing will have changed.

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15 minutes ago, Milky said:

 I understand, but you would think the UK has a large enough car industry to have it done locally.

What do you mean "locally"? You have no idea about the scale of manufacturing do you? We are talking about specialist workshops doing specific jobs on engines. If each car manufacturer wanted to build their engines in one place, then each manufacturer would need all the different workshops in that place. Say, for example, there are 4 car manufacturers and the engines for each of their cars have specialised jobs done in 4 different workshops, then instead of there being 4 specialist workshops doing the work on the engines of 4 manufacturers, there would have to be 16 workshops  each doing work on the engines of one manufacturer. Not exactly economical is it?

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24 minutes ago, Milky said:

 Not at all, there is no reason why the third world can not manufacture for its own markets.

So you want to restrict third world workers to only selling goods in their home markets? Not very liberal of you is it? The world would be a much poorer place if each country could only sell its produce at home. :rolleyes:

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42 minutes ago, asperity said:

What do you mean "locally"? You have no idea about the scale of manufacturing do you? We are talking about specialist workshops doing specific jobs on engines. If each car manufacturer wanted to build their engines in one place, then each manufacturer would need all the different workshops in that place. Say, for example, there are 4 car manufacturers and the engines for each of their cars have specialised jobs done in 4 different workshops, then instead of there being 4 specialist workshops doing the work on the engines of 4 manufacturers, there would have to be 16 workshops  each doing work on the engines of one manufacturer. Not exactly economical is it?

There not specialized, it is mass production, in a world of depleting resources and we are told increasing pollution I wonder if there is a better way?

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1 hour ago, asperity said:

So you want to restrict third world workers to only selling goods in their home markets? Not very liberal of you is it? The world would be a much poorer place if each country could only sell its produce at home. :rolleyes:

How is paying someone a dollar a day to produce an iPhone getting them out of poverty?

Globalization seems to be making the world much poorer, some people got rich in places like India, Mexico, China, vast majority of  people are still in poverty, it is just that parts ofEurope and the USA have got poorer too. In China we are creating a super power which will threaten us militarily in years to come.

Places like South Africa should be as rich as any western country with its natural resources, people, weather, scenery but corruption is preventing it to move forward.

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49 minutes ago, Milky said:

How is paying someone a dollar a day to produce an iPhone getting them out of poverty?

Globalization seems to be making the world much poorer, some people got rich in places like India, Mexico, China, vast majority of  people are still in poverty, it is just that parts ofEurope and the USA have got poorer too. In China we are creating a super power which will threaten us militarily in years to come.

Places like South Africa should be as rich as any western country with its natural resources, people, weather, scenery but corruption is preventing it to move forward.

If you pay someone a dollar a day they are a dollar a day richer (i.e. less poor) than if you don't employ them at all. Globalization is reducing world poverty faster than at any time in history if you look at the statistics.

How are "we" making China a superpower?

South Africa is fast becoming a basket case because of the people the South Africans have put in power, they are following the example set by the likes of Zimbabwe and Venezuela, instead of following the example set by most Western democracies.

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1 hour ago, Milky said:

There not specialized, it is mass production, in a world of depleting resources and we are told increasing pollution I wonder if there is a better way?

Yes, all you car drivers stop driving cars. Problem solved.

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I went into town on Sunday for a look around the Makers market. It looked great, lots of families browsing, buying and eating in the Queens gardens. There was also a ballet on at the Parr Hall. Nipped into Golden sq which was almost as busy as a Saturday.  Didn't cost me a penny to park.

You whingers need to try it sometime, you could do it when you are placing flowers on the site of the Manx Arms.

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5 hours ago, Milky said:

There not specialized, it is mass production, in a world of depleting resources and we are told increasing pollution I wonder if there is a better way?

Sorry but they really are specialized. Each element is optimised and achieves the lowest cost by producing the largest volume possible with different models sharing common components to the greatest extent practical. Whilst any manufacturer has a large enough market to do this the world will not go back to cottage industries. The reality is that our prosperity depends on the economies of scale and without them prices would rise dramatically and our standard of living would plummet. The doomsayers are generally trying to frighten us all enough to make us want to return to the stone age as communists, don't listen as that way lies madness!

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On 5/16/2018 at 8:22 PM, P J said:

Regarding your diversionary question  here's an answer for you, write to the council and ask.

 

 

methinks someone is trying to shift the debate to their favourite hobby horse lol

I have. I don't just sit around whinging thousands of times on here like some people. I always go to source. 

They won't say.

So, they've gone from publicising the costs in support of a business case, to increasing them (still in support of a weaker but viable business case) to pretending they don't exist.

Occam's Razor leads to one conclusion. The business case has gone. 

As for all the other stuff in your post - it's just your usual straw man stuff full of things I never said, so I'll ignore that bit. 

BTW, somebody should have told the city of culture bid team that the town already has two 'municipal theatres'. It would have helped the bid no end and I can't believe they overlooked the facts you've  just made up  supplied.  
 

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