Parliament "taking control" -

[observer]

or ignoring the will of the people ?     

[Confused52]

By 309 to 305 it seems they are indeed threatening the will of the people. Will we have to depend on the Lords yet again?

[observer]

Think perhaps there's even more treachery in the Lords.   Assuming article 50 is irreversible and time runs out, due to these idiots refusing to agree with "a deal"; it would mean we leave without a deal, which may be preferable to some of us !   Or maybe, having refused "a deal", these arrogant traitors would return to Brussels, cap in hand, to beg for a humiliating return to the EU ?  In any event, LEAVERS now know which Parties and which individuals not to vote for in future.  

[Confused52]

Indeed and to be clear Helen Jones, Faisal Rashid and Conor McGinn all voted for the amendment and to have an Act of Parliament required to confirm the Brexit deal, according to Hansard.

On a minor point Article 50 is not irreversible because the Treaty does not say it is. In the Gina Miller Supreme Court case the court was given a statement that the notice was irreversible in a common position from the parties which means that the court did not have to consider that point as it was not in dispute.

To be even handed we should remember that MPs are representatives and not delegates, to paraphrase what Edmund Burke first said back in 1774 (http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html)

 

[observer]

So why has Junker and Barnier being going on about "the clock ticking", which implies a finite limit on the process, at the end of which we crash out, if no deal is reached ?   I've no doubt that some Remoaners will endeavour to scupper any deal in the belief they can call the whole thing off and return to the EU fold, others will be prepared to saddle the UK with a continued bill for the privilege of staying in the single market - either way, clearly not what we voted for in the referendum.   As for delegate V representative:  this is always used by politicians who feel superior to the common herd and believe election constitutes some kind of anointing.   But if we take the meaning of "representation", it clearly means just that, to represent the views of one's constituents. Ultimately those constituents can decide their fate at the next election, if they have any sense.        

[Confused52]

The clock ticking bit refers to the text of Article 50 paragraph 3, which states, "The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period." If the notice is revoked then the two year anniversary is not reached but the UK has so far said it is not going to try to revoke the notice. It is strange that the press usually imply that the parliament as well as the council have to agree to an extension but you can see the text allows for an extension agreed only by the council and I take it that Tusk calling for unity in the 27 is at least in part referring to that possibility.

As for MPs fate at the next election I do not share your confidence in an empowered electorate in Warrington.

[Davy51]

As Mrs May found to her regret in the snap general election, although the referendum galvanised support from across all party allegiances for either leave or remain, a general election is a different kettle of fish. Referendum allegiances will come a poor second to electoral policies & party preferences at the next election & i doubt if any MP will be punished at the ballot box. The MPs mentioned represent dyed in the wool voters some of whom would vote for a monkey if it sported a red rosette.

[observer]

The MPs in question (IE the rebels) wear blue rosettes, but if the Tory Party have any sense they'll be deselected for the next election. As for the red rosette crowd, many may find themselves deselected for other reasons by Momentum !               

[Confused52]

Obs,

The only two red rosette rebels were Kate Hoey and Frank Field according to Hansard. The rest of the Labour MPs put party before country as usual.

[observer]

Didn't mean that Con;  I'm referring to the current Bolshevik take over from the Menshaviks !   

[Davy51]

Don't be disillusioned ,a  future general election could easily deliver a Labour government full of Menshaviks .

[observer]

Depends how efficient or not Momentum is. Also, just what kind of reaction Leavers have to Brexit being scotched.    

[fugtifino]

Parliament "taking control"

I'm trying to figure out if that's a *good thing* or not; is it?

And, if they're not already in control, who are they taking it from?

[observer]

The people of course.  Whilst most are paying lip service to the referendum vote, it's clear to a blind man that Parliament are trying to frustrate that decision.     

[asperity]

Parliament having a say in the final deal is probably a good thing if it means that Treeza can't sell us down the river to the Eurocrats behind our backs, which I wouldn't put past her!

[Davy51]

Love her or hate her, I honestly think Maggie Thatcher would have been invaluable in these negotiations. I think May is doing her best though since taking up the dirty end of the stick,apart from the naivety of calling the snap election which backfired badly.

[observer]

Think you have to look at her final end, to discover just how fickle and self seeking politicians are as they pursue their grubby little agendas. As in life, tipping over the chess board is a common feature of politicians who don't get their way, and that's what we're seeing.  Mind you, the electorate don't help, as they are equally fickle,  as the snap election should have mirrored the referendum (in theory), but clearly didn't.  

[Davy51]

But the election was fought also on more fundamental issues than a straight in or out.

[observer]

Depends on your point of view, to my mind nothing is more important than settling this once in a generation decision, to return powers to our sovereign nation, thus trumping everything else.   Yes, there are many issues that require resolution, but they'll not be sorted by conflating them with Brexit, one thing at a time in priority order, anything less is a recipe for confusion and inertia imo.      

[observer]

Depends on your point of view, to my mind nothing is more important than settling this once in a generation decision, to return powers to our sovereign nation, thus trumping everything else.   Yes, there are many issues that require resolution, but they'll not be sorted by conflating them with Brexit, one thing at a time in priority order, anything less is a recipe for confusion and inertia imo.      

[Davy51]

Couldn't agree more Obs !