Border controls ?

[observer]

Seems the Irish are demanding "a soft border" with Ulster, which implies that we remain in the Customs Union.  Surely this is a two way process, in which both parties agree a solution, not place responsibility on the UK alone?  The EU already has "borders" with non-EU countries, such as Norway or Switzerland, which don't seem to be a problem; the only places there is a problem is where they supposed to have "hard" borders, as in Italy and Greece, where migrants can just walk in.       

[Davy51]

Would a hard border around the island of Ireland  be a suitable solution i wonder ?  Vehicles could travel freely between Ulster & Eire & both countries could provide the appropriate paperwork for entering mainland Britain.

[asperity]

The way I see it, it's not the UK's problem. The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU and if the EU wants border restrictions it is up to them not the UK to enforce them.

[observer]

I agree Asp, that's why I wonder why we're struggling with it.  Whoever imposes tariffs, which would probably be the EU protection racket; would need to secure entry, and no doubt at a cost.      

[Confused52]

Obs,

There are two problems being conflated here Border controls and Customs Tariffs.

On Border controls the problem is that the disadvantages of the Common Travel Are act only against us. We can let in who we like or not; but once in they are free to enter only the Irish Republic. Because Ireland is not part of Schengen our imports cannot reach the rest of the EU. Conversely those who are let into the EU, or originate in the EU are free to wander via the Common Travel Area into the UK undetected.

On customs tariffs the problem is not just difference in direct tariffs but differentials in third country rates whereby trade could be disrupted for example by tariff free South American goods being cheaper if imported through the UK and then Ireland to the EU. That is, I think, why we are hearing suggestion that our tariffs could mirror those of the Customs Union by agreement, but not be governed by the ECJ. That would allow a tariff free border and the Common Travel area means no need for border posts. The problem remaining would be things like sanctions where tariffs are changed without consultation and events where the EU just decide to act in an unreasonable way and I suppose they would need the back up of the electronic records system to allow us both to catch up if discrepancies occurred but it could be made to never be needed with goodwill. Which is what seems to be missing!

[observer]

Hard border it is then !            Your right of course, there are two issues, and the one we're primary concerned with is illegal entry into the UK, which unless migrants start arriving by parachute or landing craft, generally requires a UKBF capable of policing our ports and airports. In the case of Ulster however, (unless we build a Donald Wall ! ), access can be gained throughout; which means legislation to allow capture and immediate return when the are discovered by the authorities, which is another reason for escaping the clutches of the ECoJ.   The EU have belatedly made efforts to reduce illegal migration into Europe by bribing the Turks and the Libyans, to restrict the flow and combat the traffickers. However, how long such a Dane Geld scenario will last and at what cost, is open to speculation.   The other issue, which appears to be the preoccupation of the EU, is movement of goods and associated tariffs, something that they will have to deal with, if they which to continue with their protection racket. The head of the WTO is now saying that the UK reverting to WTO rules "will not mean the end of the world".         

[observer]

The CEO of Ford UK is claiming that tariffs will cost his Company around a £Billion, due to Brexit.  Then the piece (on CH4 News) moved onto just how the Ford Fiesta is made:-   the engines are assembled at Dagenham from parts supplied from other EU countries (principally France & Spain); so we have thousands of road miles and consequent pollution and grid lock bringing in the nuts and bolts of an engine.  When assembled, the completed engines are then transported to the mega-Ford factory in Germany, where they are fitted into the completed car, yet more road miles.  When assembled, the cars are then sent back to the UK for sale and distribution.   So all this toing and froing would no doubt become mutually expensive if tariffs are increased, so perhaps this convoluted business model is the problem, and total assembly in one country, would provide jobs and reduce polluting road journeys ?        

[asperity]

Obs, how can he possibly put a figure on this when nobody knows what tariffs, if any, are applied post Brexit?

[observer]

Presumably based on a WTO scenario or just more Remoaner fake news to scare the natives !   What annoyed me about the interview (CH4), is that he wasn't challenged over his business model, which is clearly a generator of vehicle pollution and traffic congestion, so I'm surprised the tree huggers haven't picked up on it !       

[asperity]

Yes it sounds like plucking numbers out of the air. Under WTO rules we can set 0% tarriffs if we want.

[observer]

.... and now the EU are presenting us with a £60billion bill, which the Gov. undermined by a load of back stabbing Remoaner MPs, look likely to pay.   Alas, our own fault for electing these EUrophiles at the G/Election.   The way to deal with blackmailers is to call their bluff, which in this case would mean crashing out with no deal and no payment.       

[Confused52]

It is my hope that the upper bound comes with caveats such as giving us a trade deal we will accept.  In the limit being too awkward means it is off the table too. So if it has been done sensibly the EU will be on the back foot trying to keep what the might already have instead of it being the UK doing the begging.

[Togger1]

17 hours ago, observer said:

.... and now the EU are presenting us with a £60billion bill, which the Gov. undermined by a load of back stabbing Remoaner MPs, look likely to pay.   Alas, our own fault for electing these EUrophiles at the G/Election.   The way to deal with blackmailers is to call their bluff, which in this case would mean crashing out with no deal and no payment.       

If only we had been warned about this before the referendum 

[observer]

3 hours ago, Togger1 said:

If only we had been warned about this before the referendum 

Anyone with a glimmer of sense would have deduced that some kind of severance deal would be required. The only difference is, some voted LEAVE in the belief that we would have politicians with the bottle to simply not pay it.  Alas, the G/Election put back Remoaners into Parliament, determined to row back on the referendum decision, allowing the EU to take advantage of our divisions. btw. the £350million per week is still being paid into the EU, as we haven't left yet.       

[Togger1]

On 30/11/2017 at 10:54 AM, observer said:

Anyone with a glimmer of sense would have deduced that some kind of severance deal would be required. The only difference is, some voted LEAVE in the belief that we would have politicians with the bottle to simply not pay it.  Alas, the G/Election put back Remoaners into Parliament, determined to row back on the referendum decision, allowing the EU to take advantage of our divisions. btw. the £350million per week is still being paid into the EU, as we haven't left yet.       

You do seem very fond of using childish little names to call anyone with a different view of anything Brexit to yourself.  I thought it only fair to come up with a few portmanteaus of my own for you.  How about Brascist, Bracist, Brigot,  Brazi or my particular favourite complete and utter brellend.  Enjoy

[observer]

   lol.   sticks and stones etc       thought for a second you might address the rest of the paragraph, rather than seizing on trivia.     

[Togger1]

1 hour ago, observer said:

   lol.   sticks and stones etc       thought for a second you might address the rest of the paragraph, rather than seizing on trivia.     

but the rest of your paragraph is just contradictory nonsense, more fun to simply laugh at you as it would appear the Brexit brigade deceived their most ardent fans (brellends) along with everyone else

[observer]

1 hour ago, Togger1 said:

but the rest of your paragraph is just contradictory nonsense, more fun to simply laugh at you as it would appear the Brexit brigade deceived their most ardent fans (brellends) along with everyone else

The only thing it contradicts is your assertion that voters were so thick, that they believed everything they were told in that referendum campaign (by both sides).  No doubt many had made their minds up years before, having experiences 40 years of the EU.  All that's happening now, in these so-called negotiations, is an arrogant EU trying to brow beat a weak Government, that is being undermined by Remoaner MPs,  who are covertly ignoring the referendum result.         

[Togger1]

2 hours ago, observer said:

The only thing it contradicts is your assertion that voters were so thick, that they believed everything they were told in that referendum campaign (by both sides).  No doubt many had made their minds up years before, having experiences 40 years of the EU.  All that's happening now, in these so-called negotiations, is an arrogant EU trying to brow beat a weak Government, that is being undermined by Remoaner MPs,  who are covertly ignoring the referendum result.         

there you go again with the contradiction and pathetic name calling, typical Brellend

[observer]

Is that what you call a response ?   Pathetic.      

[Togger1]

12 minutes ago, observer said:

Is that what you call a response ?   Pathetic.      

I seem to be determining your narrative. 

[observer]

No, you seem to be drifting off the topic and exposing your limitations !     

[Togger1]

Brollocks.   You claim that "remoaners" within the Tory party are covertly ignoring the referendum result, how do you arrive at this conclusion?

[Togger1]

1 hour ago, observer said:

Is that what you call a response ?   Pathetic.      

It's more than the post deserved by way of reply.

[observer]

1 hour ago, Togger1 said:

Brollocks.   You claim that "remoaners" within the Tory party are covertly ignoring the referendum result, how do you arrive at this conclusion?

Their photos were printed on the front page of one newspaper;  all are threatening to vote against the Gov if we leave the single market, which means leaving the EU.  Leaving means:-  leaving the single market, leaving the customs union and leaving the jurisdiction of the ECoJ; anything less, and we're still in the EU.  Getting back to the border, as the EU are the ones requiring tariff barriers, it will be in their interests to provide and fund a hard border, not us.  We require methods of protecting entry by illegal migrants, which can be achieved at ports and airports, and by (ECoJ FREE) legislation that allows our Police and UKBF to find, detain & deport those in circulation in our community.