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Dizzy

Green Belt Under Threat - Areal View

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Recent drone aerial footage of the Lumb Brook Valley/Appleton/Grappenhall area of Warrington showing all the greenbelt land a lot of which, if the council have their way,  will be turned into housing and the greenbelf gone for EVER.  You only really realise what will be lose when you see it all from above :(  #IloveWA4 #saveourgreenbelt

 

 

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What it needs is an access road to the new toll bridge so traffic can avoid Warrington town centre.

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Very nice Dizzy, but weren't all the houses shown on the video built on what was, at the time, green belt land?

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54 minutes ago, asperity said:

Very nice Dizzy, but weren't all the houses shown on the video built on what was, at the time, green belt land?

Lost enough already then haven't we! 

Warrington has already expanded under the 'New Town' programme - wasn't that enough for one town to take?  

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1 hour ago, Davy51 said:

What it needs is an access road to the new toll bridge so traffic can avoid Warrington town centre.

Why would residents of the proposed 'commuter estates' be travelling that way?

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2 hours ago, Sha said:

Lost enough already then haven't we! 

Warrington has already expanded under the 'New Town' programme - wasn't that enough for one town to take?  

I don't know actually. But is there an element of NIMBYism creeping in here? Everyone keeps saying there's a housing crisis in this country and that it's vital that millions of new homes be built. Well they have to be built somewhere don't they?

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1 hour ago, asperity said:

I don't know actually. But is there an element of NIMBYism creeping in here? Everyone keeps saying there's a housing crisis in this country and that it's vital that millions of new homes be built. Well they have to be built somewhere don't they?

In the case of Warrington, the question is really why so many have to be built so quickly. The Grappenhall Heys thing is a red herring with regard to the local plan because they have been on the drawing board for ages. 

Based on the local plan however, the council is looking to expand the size of the town at double the rate of the last 40 years over the next 20. It's got little or nothing to do with the government. Warrington has a hospital that is already not fit for purpose, is hermetically sealed by motorways, is geographically restricted by the presence of two major waterways, is already the second most polluted place in the North West and has a hopelessly inadequate road system with any roads planned that have the primary purpose of opening up lands for thousands of new homes and hence cars rather than relieve traffic.

It all looks like collective madness from a council that is desperate for status and income and - in search of them - already putting the future of the town at stake with its investment strategy. 

There almost certainly is an element of Nimbyism at play, but then again you only have to look at Chapelford in particular and the often dreadful homes that developers come up with in general to realise the Nimbys have got a point. They're not the only ones concerned about the creation of shitty housing estates on the town's remaining green spaces. And does anybody really think that WBC will hold developers' feet to the fire to ensure that the quality of new homes and infrastructure is kept to the promised standard?

https://www.ft.com/content/4a6cff98-ea01-11e6-967b-c88452263daf

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/11/why-are-britains-new-homes-built-so-badly

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-3548584/Wonky-windows-dodgy-wiring-holes-walls-Beware-builders-flogging-shoddy-new-build-homes.html

 

 

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38 minutes ago, grey_man said:

In the case of Warrington, the question is really why so many have to be built so quickly. The Grappenhall Heys thing is a red herring with regard to the local plan because they have been on the drawing board for ages. 

Based on the local plan however, the council is looking to expand the size of the town at double the rate of the last 40 years over the next 20. It's got little or nothing to do with the government. Warrington has a hospital that is already not fit for purpose, is hermetically sealed by motorways, is geographically restricted by the presence of two major waterways, is already the second most polluted place in the North West and has a hopelessly inadequate road system with any roads planned that have the primary purpose of opening up lands for thousands of new homes and hence cars rather than relieve traffic.

It all looks like collective madness from a council that is desperate for status and income and - in search of them - already putting the future of the town at stake with its investment strategy. 

There almost certainly is an element of Nimbyism at play, but then again you only have to look at Chapelford in particular and the often dreadful homes that developers come up with in general to realise the Nimbys have got a point. They're not the only ones concerned about the creation of shitty housing estates on the town's remaining green spaces. And does anybody really think that WBC will hold developers' feet to the fire to ensure that the quality of new homes and infrastructure is kept to the promised standard?

 

 

and yet you remain?

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11 minutes ago, Togger1 said:

and yet you remain?

Nope. I've recently gone. My grown up children are still in Warrington hence my residual interest in the town, but I expect them to leave in the future. I lived in Warrington for 20 years and grew very fond of the place and its people. What is happening is not why I moved, but I think there's a real possibility that the town is going to go from being a good place to live to somewhere pretty unpleasant and possibly bankrupt.  

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6 hours ago, Sha said:

Why would residents of the proposed 'commuter estates' be travelling that way?

Because the outcry about the new bridge has disappeared overnight with the new house building plans.

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A slightly off topic question for Dizzy - did you really mean to say "aerial view", or was it a clever play on words as in "a real view"? Just curious :D

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Think the term "green belt" is being very liberally  applied, and the key point is "housing need".   We need housing units asap, but not the upmarket one's being supported by Gov, with leg ups for the middle classes. We need a massive building programme of Council housing to reduce demand throughout the housing sector, thus reducing prices.  Unfortunately the Tories are in denial, and their dogma won't permit it.         :ph34r:.          

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Well there we have it Obs ,how about social housing on any available town centre brown field sites to bring some life back to the t/c & more private building on the outskirts for the commuter brigade in their powerful cars & expense account lifestyles ?

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The question visa vi the green belt is, do you build out (into the GB) or up within the brown belt ?    The next question is, do you build for need or for want ?   The private sector are happy to build few houses for maximum profit, rather than lots of (council) houses for less profit per unit; hence the current lack of supply and high prices.   Unfortunately, the Tories seem to believe that Council Housing for rent encourages a dependency culture rather than an aspirational culture; but perhaps that's not the reality; EG: the Continentals have a higher percentage of rental units, and I doubt we could accuse the Germans of not being aspirational.  We also have the dimension of the building industry itself;  currently suffering a depression, a wholesale commitment to a huge council housing programme would imo reinvigorate it and our economy generally. Yes, there are fundamental questions about "where do we get the money"; but Local Councils have huge land and building assets that can support their borrowing requirement, they just need a green light from Gov, to get on with it.     :ph34r:

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Any right thinking government would also want the farming industry going full tilt post Brexit ,& Cheshire has some of the country's best farm land  ,so probably the least built on the better.

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13 hours ago, Davy51 said:

What it needs is an access road to the new toll bridge so traffic can avoid Warrington town centre.

Do I sense a touch or sarcasm there Davy.  Maybe not and I might be making assumptions but in a way you are right in what you say as the new access road/bridge(s) are certainly part of the bigger plans to allow future greenbelt housing development even if the council say they aren't.  It's so obvious as without any new bridges and the road changes (which on paper 'may' show the road infrastructure could cope) they can't possibly be be serious in thinking they can open up and allow permission for all these new housing developments.  It's madness :(

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2 hours ago, Davy51 said:

Well there we have it Obs ,how about social housing on any available town centre brown field sites to bring some life back to the t/c & more private building on the outskirts for the commuter brigade in their powerful cars & expense account lifestyles ?

Good thinking Davy. Do you have any brown field sites in the town centre in mind? Off hand I can't really think of any, but what would I know?

Is there a market in Warrington for all these high flying commuters in their high powered cars and expense accounts? I thought they all lived in the leafier parts of Cheshire alongside all the footballers.

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12 hours ago, asperity said:

Very nice Dizzy, but weren't all the houses shown on the video built on what was, at the time, green belt land?

Yes I suppose you are right Asp and at one time it would have been open fields just like it was where my house now sits and probably yours too.  But does that make this latest plan OK?  Surely there has to be a point where enough green belt or open space/fields has been lost over the years.  Once it;s all gone...what then ?
Regarding the Appleton/Grappenhall mass build green belt proposals do you really think that because there is a real housing need and because people can;t afford to get on the housing market so this will give some a chance to?  Yeah right....I presume everyone has seen the house prices in Appleton and Grappenhall. 
The  'possible' developers will be sitting there praying and rubbing their hands together hoping for approval as they will make an absolute fortune....and of course the council WILL recoup a higher level of council tax too from the area concerned.  Neither are stupic and will be looking at the land that will give the highest return to their own pockets and not give a jot about the need for REAL affordable housing for those who want to buy their first home when most are way out of their reach £'s wise :(



 

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I'd just like to add that I an NOT a NIMBY...most of the land around my neck of the woods has been built on over the past 10 years but none of the houses built are lower priced and affordable.  I suppose we could afford one if we sold our house though but we would still have to take out a new mortgage to cover the difference...not a bloody chance !! 

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5 hours ago, asperity said:

A slightly off topic question for Dizzy - did you really mean to say "aerial view", or was it a clever play on words as in "a real view"? Just curious :D

Damn...why didn't I think of that..yes that would have been a clever play on words :wink:  :lol:

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4 hours ago, observer said:

Think the term "green belt" is being very liberally  applied, and the key point is "housing need".   We need housing units asap, but not the upmarket one's being supported by Gov, with leg ups for the middle classes. We need a massive building programme of Council housing to reduce demand throughout the housing sector, thus reducing prices.  Unfortunately the Tories are in denial, and their dogma won't permit it.         :ph34r:.          

I agree with part of and yes I guess we do need more council housing too for those in a desperate need...but surely if would be better for more  homes to be built that first time buyers could actually afford to buy and pay for themselves.  My son and his girlfriend are desperate to get on the housing ladder and buy their own home but all are way out of reach price wise despite both of them being in full time employment and working their socks trying to earn a living and go forward in life.  I'd HATE to be their age these days as it was hard enough for us when we got our first house but we were on more money back then than these are on today.  How is that...oh yes it's cos house prices have soared but wages haven't kept up :(  

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39 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

Yes I suppose you are right Asp and at one time it would have been open fields just like it was where my house now sits and probably yours too.  But does that make this latest plan OK?  Surely there has to be a point where enough green belt or open space/fields has been lost over the years.  Once it;s all gone...what then ?
Regarding the Appleton/Grappenhall mass build green belt proposals do you really think that because there is a real housing need and because people can;t afford to get on the housing market so this will give some a chance to?  Yeah right....I presume everyone has seen the house prices in Appleton and Grappenhall. 
The  'possible' developers will be sitting there praying and rubbing their hands together hoping for approval as they will make an absolute fortune....and of course the council WILL recoup a higher level of council tax too from the area concerned.  Neither are stupic and will be looking at the land that will give the highest return to their own pockets and not give a jot about the need for REAL affordable housing for those who want to buy their first home when most are way out of their reach £'s wise :(



 

Well I would like to make it clear that I don't have a dog in the ring on this issue. However I do realise that, along with education, hospitals and general social welfare housing is under immense pressure and that the growth in population is to blame as much as governmental inertia. I sympathise with all the young people today who don't think that they stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting on the housing ladder, but to be fair it wasn't easy back in 1978 when I put my foot on the bottom rung and found that there wasn't any money left at the end of the month for enjoyment once the bills were paid. And that was before the interest rates went into double figures and we thought we might end up living in a cardboard box on the high street! Things never stay the same and hopefully sanity will return to the world one day.

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38 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

I agree with part of and yes I guess we do need more council housing too for those in a desperate need...but surely if would be better for more  homes to be built that first time buyers could actually afford to buy and pay for themselves.  My son and his girlfriend are desperate to get on the housing ladder and buy their own home but all are way out of reach price wise despite both of them being in full time employment and working their socks trying to earn a living and go forward in life.  I'd HATE to be their age these days as it was hard enough for us when we got our first house but we were on more money back then than these are on today.  How is that...oh yes it's cos house prices have soared but wages haven't kept up :(  

Simple supply and demand issue Diz;   the private sector wants to keep supply lower than demand in order to keep prices rising; in fact, in some cases they don't build houses at all, but land bank, to increase demand. This even knocks on into the rented sector, so that even rents become unaffordable.  If you flood the market with cheap, rented Council housing, thus radically increasing supply, demand reduces throughout the market and thus prices. No doubt this will produce some negative equity into the system for a while, but imo, the whole market system is a notional exercise in any case, and in Britain we seem to have a fixation with it.        :ph34r:

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7 hours ago, observer said:

Think the term "green belt" is being very liberally  applied, and the key point is "housing need".   We need housing units asap, but not the upmarket one's being supported by Gov, with leg ups for the middle classes. We need a massive building programme of Council housing to reduce demand throughout the housing sector, thus reducing prices.  Unfortunately the Tories are in denial, and their dogma won't permit it.         :ph34r:.          

Well, it doesn't happen that often but I'd say obs is bang on the money here. We need shedloads of social housing - "affordable" doesn't cut it (and I've yet to meet a political type who's happy to put a figure on what's affordable) - there's plenty of houses on the market around the £130k mark that aren't moving, maybe that's because it isn't affordable to most people trying to get on the ladder.

I don't think a few thousand more minimum wage jobs around here are going to change that situation.

 

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