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and the latest nonesense from the Irish PM:   he may ban UK flights from Irish airspace if we curtail their fishing in UK waters. This from the Nation that was propped up with EU money (20% of it our money), when they did a Greece;  exports most of it's produce through or to the UK.  Just order 500 miles of barbed wire and let's have that hard border pls.

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You know ,my memory may be failing me ,but i don't remember all this Euro concern over the Irish  border , during the troubles, when it was arguably the most dangerous piece of real estate in Europe.

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Varadkar is talking through his fundament. Not only is Britain's right to fly through Irish airspace enshrined in International law, in the event of a hijacking event over Ireland he would be relying on the RAF to take action, not having an effective airforce of his own.

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Varadkar would be better giving his Fenian chums a history lesson that Henry  8th & Cromwell  are long gone & that the English no longer burn dissenters at the stake. The mindset of some Irish is no further on than Islamic terrorists....medieval. He could do worse than unite his beloved Ireland by throwing his lot in with us  as part of the UK. He might realise this when Eire becomes the rump of Europe & the primary route of back door entry to the UK.

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Amidst the continual barrage of apocalyptic doom and gloom from the remoaners, especially at the prospect of a "no deal" Brexit; I was just thinking back to what the choice was on the actual referendum ballot form.  The choice was to "LEAVE" or "REMAIN";  no mention of "leave" if we can get a good deal, in fact no mention of "a deal" at all.  

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Some people are talking about a super Canada deal  ,Obs ,what does that entail & is  it a good or bad outcome ?

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In the light of the EU's performance Dave, I can't see them accepting anything that deviates from their rules and their four freedoms, or indeed anything that could be construed by other member States to be in anyway beneficial; otherwise it risks the EU falling apart.  Interesting that in Sweden (of all places, the hearth of socialism), a right wing euro-sceptic party is now on the rise (driven by anti-immigrant sentiment), with a policy of holding a referendum on EU membership. Listening to the pundits however, I detect the Germans won't want to treat us too harshly, as the City of London is holding a huge amount of EU debt, which could cause them serious harm in the event of no deal.  At the end of the day, they will suffer as much as us in a no deal scenario, and no doubt, many of the 27 are beginning to realise it;  so we need to keep our nerve and play it strong, and ignore the siren voices of the remoaner politicians.

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It seems a majority now think we'll get a "bad deal" out of Brexit:  WOW:  did anyone seriously believe that we would get a "good deal" ?   From the outset it was apparent that the EU could not give us anything like a"good deal" that could be construed by other EU members as a reason to opt out too.  From the beginning, the EU has told us that we can't "cherry pick", we can't "have our cake and eat it";  so why the surprise ?    Sometimes in life, decisions are made, knowing, at least initially, that there will be hardship and pain; something that has to prepared for and accepted, by biting the bullet.  A 1940s moment, when, if we'd caved in, we could have saved the trauma of the blitz etc; but that generation had the moral fibre to continue - wonder will this one ?    

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“There will be hardship and pain”  

“bite the bullet”

”anyone seriously believe we would get s good deal?”

”can’t have our cake and eat it”

 

 

Well I certainly never saw this painted on the side of s bus ✌️

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Well you wouldn't would you, might scare the snowflakes !     :D    The apocalyptic messages were supplied by the Remain campaign, something they continue to supply.

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It seems you are now trying to pass off the remain camps worries about the consequences of voting out as your own rationale.  I mean it’s not like The Leave Campaign would be dishonest now is it?  Imagine it was the other way around and Remain had won by an incredibly slender margin and then it turned out they had committed election fraud.  What would you now be gobbing out observer two ?

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What the grown-ups know is that it isn't illegal to lie in election material, not in any election, unless the lie is about another candidate and he can prove it is a lie. The Lib-Dems hardly ever say anything in their campaigns that is true (e.g. only the LibDems can beat the Tories/Labour here, is used liberally(!) even though it is total rubbish). The Greens lie on a bigger scale.

Electors need to be adult and consider what they want: not what the future generation wants, not send a message to the government, not vote because they don't like a particular single policy and not a protest vote either! In a referendum you just answer the question exactly as asked and think of the consequences for yourself. That is why we have adult suffrage.

The point about people moaning if it was the other way round is interesting, ISTR Peter Shore pledging in the commons debate on the European Communities Bill in 1972 (sorry can't find it in Hansard) that the matter of EEC membership would not just be left to lie. The referendum in 1975 gave 67.23% Remain 32.77% Leave. The "eurosceptics" didn't give up and here we are. The reality is that there are some very bad losers out there. I don't remember the 1975 referendum debate being about anything other than the issue but I do remember the discussion of the ever closer union phrase, which was dismissed by Heath at the time because it was just about the EEC and trade. Some FCO documents which were hidden for thirty years show that the government knew what was going to happen and were told by the Civil Service  that when the public finds out they will be used to being in Europe. Another lie.

So they all lie, just get over it and get on with life.

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Not going to read all that guff.  Election fraud IS NOT simply lying to the electorate (which they did too)  it is operating illegally outside the rules laid down.  A true disregard for democracy and rule of law and these low lives are still free.  

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Confused52, my apologies if you were off school  Ill when they covered précis lol

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Oh I can do precis if you really want it. Remoaners are like children, that do you?

Oh and you need to read the Representation of the People Acts, your ideas about what democracy is appear to be remoaner like! That precis enough for you now? I thought that was a bit too direct but have it your own way.

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Oh and Election fraud is breaking the rules on spending which both sides did. Labour have been breaking the rules for at least 25 years. The truth will out, I suggest that you just don't believe what you see and hear on the BBC.

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Such naive utterances from PJ:  The people have been lied to by politicians and Governments throughout history, it's only now, with the advent of social media, that alternate messages can be considered,  whether true or fake, it's ultimately a matter of perception and what people choose to believe. In the case of the referendum, a binary argument was deployed, both no doubt exaggerated for effect, if not outright lies, but neither side were in a position to promise anything as they would not hold the power to implement the decision. The opportunity for implementation was provided by a G/Election, in which the people failed to reaffirm their referendum decision, hence the current mess.  As for the "election fraud" nonsense,  Remain spent double that of the Leave campaign, some was even funded by Gov (the tax-payer); but they aren't being investigated.  The idea, that people were somehow convinced to vote leave by the influence of social media or even the Russians;  is a sample of the desperation of the establishment to counter their decision.  The fact is, that the referendum was a reaction against a liberal political establishment that has ignored the views of the people for decades and still ignores them. This reaction is not just a British phenomenon, but now appears widespread throughout Europe and the US; hopefully, the genie is now out of the bottle and the politicians are desperately trying to put it back.

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and proven electoral fraud is simply to become accepted?  I suppose if it suits your dogma you will accept almost anything.

 

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7 hours ago, Confused52 said:

 I suggest that you just don't believe what you see and hear on the BBC.

and just believe you instead :D:D:D

 

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7 hours ago, P J said:

and proven electoral fraud is simply to become accepted?  I suppose if it suits your dogma you will accept almost anything.

 

Nope, although such things as influenced postal voting, dual residence registration etc are now apparent, I don't believe their is a direct correlation between the amount spent and the result.  Otherwise, Remain having spent twice as much as Leave, would have won !   The reality is, most folk had made up their minds years before the vote, so the propaganda was futile, and as with most electoral material consigned, unread to the blue bin.  Then of course, there's the question of bias,  why is Leave spending under investigation, when Remain spending isn't ?  Indeed, the Remain campaign is continuing, led by Remoaners like Bliar and Soros,  all part of the establishment counter revolution against the will of the people.    

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Not a day goes by without a gloom and doom prediction from the Remoaner press; from roads around Dover being turned into a car park to food, medicine and skilled labour shortages. But no one asks why successive Governments have allowed our economy to become so vunerable.   Employers have relied on poaching off the shelf skills   from abroad rather than training indigenous staff.  Farmers have relied on cheap seasonal labour rather than paying an attractive wage.  Industry has allowed the dispersal of the supply chain, so becoming totally dependent on road transport for parts and supplies.  Medicines not even being produced in the UK, such as insulin. Whilst the EU may have pursued an agenda of inter-dependence, with political decisions to divide production, and thus employment between EU states; one would have imagined that HMG would have pursued a policy of promoting self sufficiency and at least protecting our vital national interests.

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I think the remain camp is trying to convince us that when (if?) we leave the EU all trade between us and the other 27 countries will stop, which is errant nonsense. We buy more from them than they buy from us, and they aren't going to cut their throats out of spite.

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I understand that Asp;  and even if we revert to WTO tariffs, that will be applied both ways, so tit for tat; but my point is about just how we've slipped into dependency over 40 years.  Who would have believed an economy the size of ours, doesn't produce it's own insulin - crazy.

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