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Geoffrey Settle

Western Link 6 Routes to chose from or none, what's your colour?

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Evil Sid    226

Well having completed the survey I will await with baited breath to see which option the council have already decided on and whose name will be put forward as the scapegoat when the completion date starts to shift ever into the future and goes way over budget and how much it will cost in repeated modifications to the junctions to eventually get it somewhere near what they envisioned on the back of the fag packet.

Given their track record on the motorway junction which has had three mods since it was opened it should be very interesting to watch developments.:shock:

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Confused52    10

Geoff, I have already asked the question about evidence. The answer is that they spent a few hundreds of thousands to get computer modelling software for the main routes in the town. The data they have put into the model is the census data you will remember them collecting last year. Next they tune the data to make sure it identifies what is happening today. Then they change the connections by adding in new roads and simulating driver choices, e.g. expected shortest time routes and see what happens.

They have to submit the results for each route in the second phase of the business case following the WebTAG guidelines for submission to the DfT. The actual choice should be done objectively on cost benefit analysis unless the first stage consultation just finished throws up something extraordinary or unexpected.

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Evil Sid    226

In other words confused, They are guessing. It is a Fairly well informed guess but still a guess. As is most planning i must add. lets just hope that the software and tweaks used to get the traffic model is more up to date than your average satnav and that they have taken into account the increased traffic from widnes bridge toll avoidance, motorway crashes and the like.

Warrington traffic planning has become a bit of a joke recently. two attempts at sorting out bridge foot lane markings springs to mind. A dedicated lane just to go to the riverside park that probably 90% of the traffic use to get into the lane to go onto knutsford road. if they use the correct lanes then you have to change lanes three times at least. Winwick road longford island removed and lights put in to help the traffic flow freely. then two new junctions added with lights that then stops the same traffic flow at albans retail park and orford jubilee hub.

twenty five years working for the government in various positions tends to make you very cynical, especially when it come to planning and spending budgets.

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Milky    21

Not effected by the road my minor interest is that my sister lives close to a couple of the routes in GS.

However I do not understand why current roads can not be utilised on the GS side, ie Old Liverpool Rd, Barmard St?

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Confused52    10
Quote

 

Sid, I suspect the tuning bit is where you work out what preferences the drivers exhibit and assume they will behave the same in terms of what drives choices, distance time or variability in the new layout. The kind of model they seem to have works out flows from node to node and doesn't assume much more than demand and capacity of links. I don't think it tells you anything about lane markings. They will still be wrong because it seems to be a real blind spot as you point out. So the modelling process it is able to make a guess or a scenario but it can always be wrong. However it is better than no guess.

As an aside you will probably see that they do not even know if the western link needs to be a single or dual carriageway until the modelling is done. For Milky, the plan for the routes show a flyover at David Lloyd. I don't suppose they know for sure if a flyover is needed but they suspect so hence warned us by putting it on the plan. For the amount of extra traffic that the possible flyover suggests the lights at Barnard Street and Penketh Lane Ends would seize up in no time. Also Old Liverpool Road is limited to 30mph as a residential street whereas Sankey Way is faster and can carry a greater volume of traffic. Barnard Street is not a very safe route with dangerous footways, I wouldn't dream of putting large volumes down there as it is a walking route from the Housing Estate off Forrest Way to Evelyn Street school.

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Milky    21
19 hours ago, Confused52 said:

For the amount of extra traffic that the possible flyover suggests the lights at Barnard Street and Penketh Lane Ends would seize up in no time. Also Old Liverpool Road is limited to 30mph as a residential street whereas Sankey Way is faster and can carry a greater volume of traffic. Barnard Street is not a very safe route with dangerous footways, I wouldn't dream of putting large volumes down there as it is a walking route from the Housing Estate off Forrest Way to Evelyn Street school.

I guessing the toll bridge at Runcorn will generate extra traffic but apart from that what extra traffic?

Even if it does there are other roads in Warrington that are similar to Old Liverpool Rd and do not seize up, Kingsway for example, Padgate Lane another.

Sankey Way is a 40 and Liverpool Rd 30 not a great difference and is often irrelevant as traffic and traffic lights prevent vehicles traveling at 40

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Confused52    10

Well when the M6 is blocked traffic aiming for all points north will avoid Warrington town centre and turn up at the end of the Western Link, well a large fraction of it will. At the moment it blocks the Cockhedge roundabout, Bridgefoot, the A50 and the A49 with slow moving traffic which then delays everything else. Why do you want that "extra" traffic to go down Liverpool Old Road or Barnard Street?

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Milky    21

 

Because Liverpool Rd/Barnard St/Forrest Way are already built and to me it makes sense to use the infrastructure you have before demolishing homes and businesses and building more of what you have.

It also kind of makes sense - to me at least - to split the traffic along two routes rather the funnel it along one road (Sankey Way) that already gets very busy While Barnard St and Forrest Way are usually very quiet, even more so with the closure of the tip.

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asperity    266

Milky, if I understand you correctly, you want to direct traffic from the south onto Old Liverpool Road/Liverpool Road which has traffic lights on junctions at each end. These junctions are already clogged (Lane Ends is the worst junction in the town, specially if you're on Liverpool Road). You have to think "where is the traffic from the A56 going? The M62 or Sankey Bridges? If the answer is M62, then why do you want to put a load of traffic on a single carriageway road with congestion at each end? Unless of course you live in Sankey Bridges and commute via the A56.

Edited by asperity
adding words

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Milky    21
14 hours ago, asperity said:

Milky, if I understand you correctly, you want to direct traffic from the south onto Old Liverpool Road/Liverpool Road which has traffic lights on junctions at each end. These junctions are already clogged (Lane Ends is the worst junction in the town, specially if you're on Liverpool Road). You have to think "where is the traffic from the A56 going? The M62 or Sankey Bridges? If the answer is M62, then why do you want to put a load of traffic on a single carriageway road with congestion at each end? Unless of course you live in Sankey Bridges and commute via the A56.

I don't get your point Asperity, traffic destine for the town centre, M62 and north of the town would continue along Sankey Way, traffic going to Stockton Heath would go along the Old Liverpool Rd.

What seems to be missed is if you put another junction on Sankey Way it will clog Sankey Way even more.

Maybe the answer is to put the road near the True Fit Golf Center on Widnes Rd and link it with the Daresbury Express Way?

But I know nothing about road planing and traffic management - just like Warrington council - and talking rubbish again like Warrington Council, I wonder if they have any vacancies?

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asperity    266

I think you're missing the point of the whole exercise Milky which is to direct traffic around the town center rather than into/out of it. The suggested red route to the already existing junction at Cromwell Ave/Sankey Way would allow traffic from the A56 to get up to the M62 without having to go through the town center. How is a road ending in Sankey Bridges going to help with that?

The new Runcorn-Widnes bridge will be, more or less, doing what you suggest for a link to the Daresbury Expressway.

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Milky    21
2 hours ago, asperity said:

I think you're missing the point of the whole exercise Milky which is to direct traffic around the town center rather than into/out of it. The suggested red route to the already existing junction at Cromwell Ave/Sankey Way would allow traffic from the A56 to get up to the M62 without having to go through the town center. How is a road ending in Sankey Bridges going to help with that?

The new Runcorn-Widnes bridge will be, more or less, doing what you suggest for a link to the Daresbury Expressway.

Extremely confused! If I am in that area and wish to get to the M62 I would use Cronwell Avenue or the A57 to get to the M62, why would I head into town?

The point of the bypass is to have a link road around Warrington so while I must admit the idea of putting a road further towards widnes is not that good. Even if you do not use Old Liverpool Rd I fail to see why not use Barnard St/Forrest Way?

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asperity    266

All well and good if you are in that area, but the point is how do you get to the Cromwell Ave. area from the A56? The best way is a direct road to the Cromwell Ave/Sankey Way junction, not via Old Liverpool Road!

And you say "Even if you don't use Old Liverpool Road (...) why not use Barnard Street/Forrest Way?" - Well Barnard Street leads onto Old Liverpool Road so where else are you going to end up?

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Milky    21

I am really not sure why you are talking about the M62, it supposed to be a ring road not a connecting road

You are going to have to cross across Old Liverpool Road in four of the proposed routes I believe.

A bit off topic but if the council are building flyovers how about a couple on Winwick Rd

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asperity    266

It's a link road Milky, to link the southwest of the town to the north, not to link the southwest to Sankey Bridges!

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Milky    21
4 hours ago, asperity said:

It's a link road Milky, to link the southwest of the town to the north, not to link the southwest to Sankey Bridges!

So why do most of the routes start/finish in Chester Road, in Walton?

I understood it to be a road to take the traffic away from the town centre.

In any case it is kind of irrelevant, the question I originally asked why not use the roads which are already built rather then build others nearby 

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Evil Sid    226

The original idea was to take the traffic that comes from runcorn/widnes away from bridge foot by diverting it across from liverpool road area to the dual cariagway as was at walton. This was to relieve congestion especially when the runcorn widnes bridge was closed. (and will probably be used more than the toll bridges i would guess)

As a bonus it will also open up land for housing developement which will enable warrington to grow as a city town and create more income for the council to build more roads to cope with the extra traffic that the new housing estates create and open up even more land for development until we finally expand to take over manchester and liverpool after which we can expand east to form a huge band across the country east to west as one huge city, after which we can move the seat of government form london and declare independence from the rest of the uk. At least that's what i think the council is heading towards but i could be wrong.:shock::wacko:

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Bazj    493

There is no "bonus" about it Sid.... the intention was always to open up the areas for building

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6 minutes ago, Evil Sid said:

Well I am surprised at that. How could the council be so sneaky.:roll:

It's out there in the Local Plan - which is still out for consultation until next month. Still time to attend one of the consultations.

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asperity    266

The red route is the one I voted for, but walking through Sankey Bridges I note that there is opposition to any Western link road at all.

The story below the map mentions the Sloop Inn as being 100 years old, although I think it is actually nearer to 150 years old. But hey, when has Warrington ever let a bit of history stand in the way of progress and the motor car (which will be completely banned before this road ever gets built the way things are going!)

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Dizzy    293

There are banners over my way opposing all the routes Asp although saying that they all start from this end so the people living near the start route are in a no win situation like I just posted under the news story.

As for the Sloop Inn, I just mentioned mentioned that in my comment under the news story too as I hadn't seen yours on here at the time but yes I'm sure too that it's much older than 100 years. 
Some time ago ( 3 August 2013 to be exact) Algy posted a list on here of old pubs/inns and he said that in 1826 an Issac Turner was the Inkeeper/Landlord of the Sloop.  I suppose there may have been an older building there before the one we see today though but todays does have a very old look about it externally and reminds me of the Barley Mow in design.  As it;s over your neck of the woods do you know what it's like inside and if its got any original features left. 

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