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Geoffrey Settle

Warrington's bid for City of Culture 2021 DOESN'T reach the FINAL 5

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Evil Sid    229

Been watching open all hours again dizz ? sound like Arkwright when he was shown a new till and told the price.:lol:

Whatever the bid cost the council will tell you that "the longer term benefits to the town will more than make up for the initial outlay"........... eventually. (that last word may not be spoken out loud but will certainly be a part of the original argument put forth in council chambers) you can also be fairly certain that any figure quoted by the council will be, at the minimum,ten percent lower than the actual cost and subject to vat no doubt.

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On 25/04/2017 at 11:00 PM, grey_man said:

It strikes me that there are two possibilities. One is that the council has no real intention of winning this bid but sees it as a cheap way of raising the town's profile, coupled with an attempt to prove that they have an interest in culture, in the face of all the evidence. And maybe they're right.

The second is that they have absolutely no bloody idea what they're doing.  

Whatever, it doesn't look like there is any sort of coherent plan behind this thing.  

I suggest a third possibility, that they'll embrace absolutely anything with the word 'city' in it, this being in support of their bid for city status for the town, and all the lovely cash that would come with it.

Follow the money.

 

 

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grey_man    165
1 hour ago, Freeborn John said:

I suggest a third possibility, that they'll embrace absolutely anything with the word 'city' in it, this being in support of their bid for city status for the town, and all the lovely cash that would come with it.

Follow the money.

 

 

I agree and I've said before that the word that has the council's attention isn't 'culture' but 'city'. 

We'll see how committed they are to culture when and if the bid fails. They're certainly going to have to come up with more than an underused Arts Centre, some gates and an Imax. I suspect they'll do very little except talk about their 'passion' and 'commitment' which is how they think they can get away with most things that don't involve housing estates and out of town shopping. 

I think this seems to be something of a theme these days, and not just in Warrington. I noticed when Sareda Dirir was up before the police and crime panel recently, her response to any questions about her experience and qualifications was always to say how passionate and committed she was. I don't think this works in most walks of life and it certainly won't get you a job in the private sector, contract or a bank loan, but seems to be fine in certain spheres of public life.

Bank manager: So Mr Man, how are you planning to pay back the loan?

Me: I'm passionate about paying back the loan. 

I expect the bid document is heavy on passion and commitment and light on plans. 

 

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grey_man    165
15 hours ago, Dizzy said:

How much ?

The council refuse to say how much they are spending on the bid (surprise!) but we know it's upwards of £100,000 and I suspect it might even be the money they've just had as a shared grant to improve the cultural offering of the town. They've just cut £160,000 from the Children's Services budget, although, of course, they remain passionate about and committed to children's services.

 

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Davy51    233

A procession of blue tinted nudes parading through town would be a frightening prospect,although it could spice up Walking Day when they hold their banners aloft.

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observer    585

No one ever produces balanced accounts of these bids, in the form of a cost benefit analysis; all we get is airy fairy phrases like "wealth creation", with no tangible evidence to support them.    :angry:

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Maybe it's because in Greg Richards paper for example on “Assessing the return on cultural investment: the case of the European Capital of Culture” argues that it is extremely complex and requires a new way of thinking about the impact of culture on different realms of social life and economy.

Now if contenders are finding it difficult to define culture then there is no way that they are going to manage a CBA. Sounds even more complicated than Functional Analysis used in IT everyone thinks it’s a good idea but it’s rarely used because it takes a great deal of time and effort.

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17 hours ago, observer said:

Bovine scatology designed to provide jollies for politicians and officers.

And here you are using an airy fairy phrase that you said above you despise - looks like you are talking out of your backside as usual and generating your own bovine scatology :huh:

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observer    585

Try answering some of the questions I put, re: costs V outcomes, rather than getting upset over jollies.    :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, observer said:

Try answering some of the questions I put, re: costs V outcomes, rather than getting upset over jollies.    :rolleyes:

You obviously didn't understand the article that I was referring to or the simple fact that the information isn't available and is measuring the outcomes of culture are complex.

Then there is the fact that I wouldn't have access to the information even if it was collected which I doubt that it will be in this case. As for jollies I don't understand the reference unless they are not included as a legitimate item of expenditure - if they aren't then inform the police, after all it's only you old boy who is harping on about them not me.

Cost benefit analysis was a lot easier for the IT projects that I used to do - for one thing we didn't need to measure culture there was no need.

If you are so clever you do it. :rolleyes:

 

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observer    585

" Complex" indeed, and intangible; so there is no evidence in audit terms to justify these bids; the only reason they are engaged in, is the political thirst for kudos and jollies. So the Plebs are fed a diet of bull s%%% to justify them.   :angry:

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1 hour ago, observer said:

" Complex" indeed, and intangible; so there is no evidence in audit terms to justify these bids; the only reason they are engaged in, is the political thirst for kudos and jollies. So the Plebs are fed a diet of bull s%%% to justify them.   :angry:

I only said that it was complex but not impossible - given time and the information I'm sure that I could do a Cost Benefit Analysis for a cultural bid to show that it was successful or otherwise, however I'm not in a position to do so nor would I have the time. I don't see why it's political. And as for your opinion of people of this town well your words speak for themselves.

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grey_man    165
11 hours ago, Geoffrey Settle said:

I only said that it was complex but not impossible - given time and the information I'm sure that I could do a Cost Benefit Analysis for a cultural bid to show that it was successful or otherwise, however I'm not in a position to do so nor would I have the time. I don't see why it's political. And as for your opinion of people of this town well your words speak for themselves.

You're mixing up legality with ethics and politicians with people. So here’s an easy question for you to answer. What did you make of David Keane's decision to appoint Sareda Dirir as his deputy? Was that illegal? Was it unethical?

By the way,  I agree with you that culture can only be measured qualitatively and on that basis alone, the council has been woefully inadequate. Unless of course you think Walton Hall should be a hotel and the libraries replaced by lockers in Funky Dory. Why didn't the council use the opportunity presented to it by the Bridge Street development to do something other than build a town centre retail park and offices for itself?

If I were to bet I would say you'll duck the first question and bluster around the second, and you're one of the more honest local politicians. 

Finally, you can only perform a CBA if you know the cost. What is the the cost of the council's bid? On a related note, what is the cost of the council's new offices? You don't have to answer. We already know that releasing such basic information is not WBCs culture.

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12 hours ago, grey_man said:

You're mixing up legality with ethics and politicians with people. So here’s an easy question for you to answer. What did you make of David Keane's decision to appoint Sareda Dirir as his deputy? Was that illegal? Was it unethical?

By the way,  I agree with you that culture can only be measured qualitatively and on that basis alone, the council has been woefully inadequate. Unless of course you think Walton Hall should be a hotel and the libraries replaced by lockers in Funky Dory. Why didn't the council use the opportunity presented to it by the Bridge Street development to do something other than build a town centre retail park and offices for itself?

If I were to bet I would say you'll duck the first question and bluster around the second, and you're one of the more honest local politicians. 

Finally, you can only perform a CBA if you know the cost. What is the the cost of the council's bid? On a related note, what is the cost of the council's new offices? You don't have to answer. We already know that releasing such basic information is not WBCs culture.

Your questions are straying off the cultural theme of this thread and I'm not up to date on all of the issues. Of course this is only my opinion and I am not necessarily up to speed with everything especially the workings of Cheshire police recruitment but I'll have a go - May not have much time to answer supplementary questions as I have my 3rd sector work to focus on.

Q1: You're mixing up legality with ethics and politicians with people. So here’s an easy question for you to answer. What did you make of David Keane's decision to appoint Sareda Dirir as his deputy? Was that illegal? Was it unethical?

A1: I think that the PCC has been naïve and the process has not been robust enough but I’m not sure if it was the one followed by John Dwey when appointing Margaret Ollerenshaw and what issues were raised then. It appeared to be legal – the process followed police procedures from job spec, through interview to confirmation hearing.

At the end of the day I’m not the best person to answer about ethics because as I have been a councilor. I have been often challenged on ethics when people don’t agree with what I said or did sometimes this even got physical. However, during the many interviews that I have taken part in I have asked if any of the interviewers know the candidate and if so they step down. This doesn’t appear to be the case in this instance nor do I understand why the police crime panel did not have a power of veto. At the end of the day the PCC chose his preferred candidate, followed the police process and his decision has been ratified.

Q2: By the way, I agree with you that culture can only be measured qualitatively and on that basis alone, the council has been woefully inadequate. Unless of course you think Walton Hall should be a hotel and the libraries replaced by lockers in Funky Dory. Why didn't the council use the opportunity presented to it by the Bridge Street development to do something other than build a town centre retail park and offices for itself?

A2: No, it can be measured qualitatively and quantitatively – it’s the qualitative that is more difficult to measure. The Jewel in the Crown is being addressed most recently by the glass houses grant and the rejuvenation of the stables. I have commented on libraries and the issues are not simply being tackled in this Town it’s across the country. I’ve visited Parbold recently where a modern library has just been closed but Lancashire are in all sorts of financial dilemmas, then the massive Litchfield City Library building that I visited 2 weeks ago is being sold off for housing.  It is evident that a new model for the 21st century for libraries should be developed just like shopping centers the impact of the internet is having a massive impact.

Q3: If I were to bet I would say you'll duck the first question and bluster around the second, and you're one of the more honest local politicians. 

A3: How did I do?

Q4: Finally, you can only perform a CBA if you know the cost. What is the the cost of the council's bid? On a related note, what is the cost of the council's new offices? You don't have to answer. We already know that releasing such basic information is not WBCs culture.

A4: CBA’s are not just cost as the reference I quoted above by Greg Richards sets out academics are starting to realise that there are more factors. I believe that the WG stated quoted the council as allocating £100k – but not sure how much of it was used. I’ve no idea about the cost of offices. There is this document of the 2030 Vision that gives some high level figures http://sys.warrington.gov.uk/content_documents/documents/warringtonandco/Images/Vision%202030%20Presentation%20AF%20LR_tcm37-57105.pdf but I don’t know how much the offices will cost.

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grey_man    165

Exactly what I said then. I like you and your approach generally but you've just done what I predicted. 

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13 minutes ago, grey_man said:

Exactly what I said then. I like you and your approach generally but you've just done what I predicted. 

I can only answer using what I know I'm not going to make things up - with politics and such there is never a right or wrong way and let people fool you otherwise, there is opinion - you wanted mine and I gave it.

I always prefer to talk to people face to face - it cuts out all the on line exchanges but can get a bit heated - that way I can look people in the eye and see what they are really thinking - may be that could be a cultural experiment

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grey_man    165

Actually I think there is a right way on certain issues, and it is not just about legality. Some things are legal but wrong, like giving tens of thousands of public money to your friends via a job for which they are unqualified. That is a clear breach of standards for public office, and the PCP knows it. 

As for the culture issue, it's very obvious that the council has had zero interest in it until recently when it became an embarrassment to it.

I just hope that we're seeing a major redirection but given the way the council absolutely detests scrutiny, we can only judge that on its future actions, not its usual chat.

 

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grey_man    165

The latest news about David Keane and the contempt it shows the council's ruling party has for the electorate proves my point Geoff and makes it hard to see why anybody should support anything it wants to do, when it is so clearly full of people who are only in it for themselves. 

The only culture the council should be thinking about right now is the Banana Republic it has become. 

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grey_man, all I'll say is that even Jed Mercurio didn't write as many twists and turns in his final episode of Line of Duty last night :D 

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grey_man    165
1 hour ago, Geoffrey Settle said:

grey_man, all I'll say is that even Jed Mercurio didn't write as many twists and turns in his final episode of Line of Duty last night :D 

I just hope it ends with the PCP finding a way to remove him from office while the local electorate carry out their own night of the long knives with him. He's a bloody disgrace. This is the behaviour that has killed politics in the UK and created the situation we are in. Money grubbing weasels like David Keane should not be allowed near public office and the Labour Party should remove him before other people do.  

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