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grey_man

Deputy PCC

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grey_man    165

I see David Keane is now the local campaign manager for the General Election in South Warrington. He is supposed to be the full time PCC, he's supposed to have no conflicts of interests and he's supposed to be based in Winsford at Police HQ. 

He needs to be removed from all public office. 

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Evil Sid    229

The man is doing a sterling job, several sterling jobs in fact,and we wonder why there is unemployment in the area. Still his deputy no doubt will provide inadequate cover whilst he is tub thumping for the party. it is not as if there will be a great deal to do on that score, most of the campaign will be a repeat from last time. Politicians are the kings when it come to recycling rubbish. (every election so far).:lol:

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observer    585

Seem to be straying into conflicts of interest territory here; isn't the Police Service supposed to be politically neutral ?     :huh:

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grey_man    165

He now appears to have, ahem, decided against taking up this role. I don't know the processes whereby these things are reversed, but it obviously has something to do with the way that the self-absorbed cretins who infest our political system suddenly encounter the real world response to things that are bleedin' obvious to anybody with an ounce of morality and common sense. 

Keane may have been told to forget about this, or whatever the hell happened, but the main point remains. He is unfit for public office and more questions need to be asked about the people close to him in the Labour Party, including his two fellow ward councillors. I certainly hope the PCP ask him yet again about his fitness for the role of PCC and commitment to it. 

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Sha    113
5 hours ago, grey_man said:

"..........the self-absorbed cretins who infest our political system suddenly encounter the real world response to things that are bleedin' obvious to anybody with an ounce of morality and common sense." 

Wow! (or ouch! - depending on whose reading).  And all without stopping for breath!

The lady of the constant erms might benefit from some coaching from you to aid her in her side-line public speaking post. 

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grey_man    165
6 hours ago, Sha said:

Wow! (or ouch! - depending on whose reading).  And all without stopping for breath!

The lady of the constant erms might benefit from some coaching from you to aid her in her side-line public speaking post. 

Or she might not :)

What I find interesting about all of this is the way that politicians deal with it. When it was first announced, the local Labour Party issued supportive noises about Keane's role. Then something changed -  maybe the public reaction, maybe a word from the Home Office, national party HQ or something else.... who knows? And he's suddenly out and we should all just move along ... there's nothing to see here. As usual.

I just hope it's not the end of it. Our faith in the political classes has never been lower and they cannot expect to be represented by people like this shyster then hope to be trusted on other matters. If they want to regain trust, it won't happen by allowing people like him to use public funds in the way he has and make the sorts of decisions he has. The clean up starts at a local level, but I note that even the majority of decent politicians are held back in some way from confronting this sort of behaviour.   

You can take even an honest, decent and honourable local politician like Geoff Settle or Steve Parish and ask them to comment on what has been going on with this man and all you'll get is ducking and obfuscation, presumably out of misplaced Party loyalty. Unless people like this call these things out for what they are, they won't change and people will grow ever more distrustful of politicians. 

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After their last stunt hit the national press, if Mr Keane and the Penketh Junta had an ounce of political sense they'd have kept their heads down for a bit, since they have demonstrated that they just aren't capable of that, I suspect that word has come down from a lot higher up the Labour Party food chain.

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grey_man - I've never been called decent and honourable - and I certainly wasn't called that last year with threats and several missives - one was 4 pages, I never made page one of the local press but I did come close especially when I was an election agent which was down to my inexperience at the time.  

All this goes with the role of being a councillor and you learn to accept it and move on.

I have moved on 12 months ago and you've read my reply to questions you asked, maybe I haven't answered the way you want me to but in the Word's of Fleetwood Mac "Oh Well"

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you (or anyone else)
I might not give the answer that you want me to
 

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grey_man    165
3 hours ago, Freeborn John said:

After their last stunt hit the national press, if Mr Keane and the Penketh Junta had an ounce of political sense they'd have kept their heads down for a bit, since they have demonstrated that they just aren't capable of that, I suspect that word has come down from a lot higher up the Labour Party food chain.

Next up will be the appointment of his 'Chief of Staff'. I think there's a strong possibility it will be somebody he already knows, probably from WBC. We await with bated breath. 

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grey_man    165
1 hour ago, Geoffrey Settle said:

grey_man - I've never been called decent and honourable - and I certainly wasn't called that last year with threats and several missives - one was 4 pages, I never made page one of the local press but I did come close especially when I was an election agent which was down to my inexperience at the time.  

All this goes with the role of being a councillor and you learn to accept it and move on.

I have moved on 12 months ago and you've read my reply to questions you asked, maybe I haven't answered the way you want me to but in the Word's of Fleetwood Mac "Oh Well"

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you (or anyone else)
I might not give the answer that you want me to
 

I've never had a different impression of either you or Steve Parish, even when you're both defending the indefensible or - as here - trying not to call one of your colleagues what he is. All I can tell you is that I've watched the reaction of the members of the PCP to the PCC and his deputy and observed Keane's sullen, resentful demeanour when asked perfectly reasonable questions and Sareda Dirir's belligerence in the equivalent situation and I know full well what we are dealing with here.   

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observer    585

Political corruption goes right to the top Grey;  a competition of egos, seeking powers and rewards they couldn't find in any other career path. Whilst most enter the arena with the best of intentions, the competition and factionalisation takes over, to the point that it's like letting alcoholics loose in a brewery. Perhaps some independent system of oversight and enforcement is required to ethically control politicians ?

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grey_man    165

And who legislates for that? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I just can't see politicians going along with a robust and independent form of oversight. 

The Internet has its uses and one of them is its ability to shine a light into corners that might otherwise remain dark. But that's not enough. What we need are politicians bold enough to stand up to the low level corruption that can seem endemic, as well as the higher levels of corruption. We need politicians to see that there is a difference between ethical and legal and are willing to stand up to their own Party. 

Instead we have too many who are prepared to excuse the inexcusable. I noticed some Labour wonk briefly rocked up on the Grauniad's comment section to claim that the whole thing about Keane is a non-story. I suspect that a lot of people in the local Labour Party share the view that a non-story is defined as nepotism, the secretive relocation of the office for the PCC's own convenience to the detriment of his relationship with the police, the persistent refusal to answer questions and provide information to his own regulatory body, the refusal to give up a role as councillor that calls his impartiality into question and his willingness to moonlight from a supposedly full time, independent role to run the campaign for a specific party in a General Election.

Some days I think that things won't change until we see politicians' heads on spikes once more.        

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observer    585

:D   ... and that's the nub of the problem Grey;  turkeys don't vote for Christmas, so any cleaning out of the stables is virtually impossible.  From the abusive granting of peerages to Party funders, who then abuse the expenses system in the Lords, and compound it with cash for questions all the way down to the small fry on L/Councils; it's no wonder the public hold them in contempt.

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grey_man    165
18 hours ago, observer said:

:D   ... and that's the nub of the problem Grey;  turkeys don't vote for Christmas, so any cleaning out of the stables is virtually impossible.  From the abusive granting of peerages to Party funders, who then abuse the expenses system in the Lords, and compound it with cash for questions all the way down to the small fry on L/Councils; it's no wonder the public hold them in contempt.

What grips my pipe is that whatever some politicians do, however morally ambiguous, corrupt or illegal, the standard response from their colleagues is what Geoff has done here. Namely, just to claim it's what goes with the turf of being a politician. You can imagine them all sitting around in the Councillor's Social Club.

"Course in my day, it was OK to pay tens of thousands to a friend's daughter and nobody took offence. Now people just expect you to employ the best person for the job which means interviewing twenty people before you give it to the person you were going to give it to in the first place."

"It's political correctness gone mad, Dave." 

"You're right there Terry. I remember we just used to set fire to planning records when nobody was looking. Now you can't even build something for yourself using public money without somebody asking how much."

"Just put a towel over your head and say that there's no such thing. We're not building offices for ourselves and even if we were they wouldn't cost anything. And even if they did cost something, they'd come from the capital budget and not revenue. And even if the loan repayments came from the revenue budget, they'd still not count. And even if they did count, we'd keep it all to ourselves. Bloody taxpayers, coming over here, paying their taxes and asking what we're doing with them." 

"Wise words, Russ. How's the City of Culture bid going Dan?"

"All sorted. We've sent them a dictionary and crossed out the definition of culture being about arts and theatre and music and whatever and highlighted the one that says 'The growing of microorganisms, tissue cells, or other living matter in a specially prepared nutrient medium'. Coventry, Stoke and Perth may have historic buildings and theatres but that's only one definition of culture. We've got the Persepolis on Orford Lane and its two star hygiene rating." 

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grey_man    165

This isn't far from the truth of course. Always worth reminding ourselves what happens when some politicians encounter the real world unexpectedly. This is still priceless

  

 

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On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 11:22 PM, grey_man said:

What grips my pipe is that whatever some politicians do, however morally ambiguous, corrupt or illegal, the standard response from their colleagues is what Geoff has done here. Namely, just to claim it's what goes with the turf of being a politician. You can imagine them all sitting around in the Councillor's Social Club.

 

I think as far as PCC is concerned it's the system that is at fault/weak.  - I also made the point that when interviewing people I did so in the clear expectation that if any of the panel knew any of the applicants then that would be declared up front and stand down - it's a bit like being on the planning committee when you say whether or not you have expressed an opinion or know the applicant of the proposed build/change - if you do then you declare it and step down.

As for expenses, I can't remember when I last did even at work it must have been about 20 years ago, after all Warrington is such a small place and the longest journey you make is possibly 6 miles.

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grey_man    165

That whole 'it's the system' thing doesn't wash any more Geoff. Keane is in clear breach of the Nolan code of conduct and resents it being pointed out. 'The System' tells him how to behave even though it shouldn't have to, he's signed up to it on several occasions. Yet when it comes to it, he breaches it without hesitation.

I'll say it again. He's unfit for public office and should be removed. What seems more likely is that he's about to appoint somebody else he knows as his chief of staff. 

There is no trust in politicians any more and the people to blame are the politicians themselves. Both chancers like Keane for what they do and people like you for justifying it. 

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When was this great age of trust in politics that you speak of? 

I don't think that it's ever existed - it's just that we have become less naïve and the media picks up on what politicians do now as it makes news and generates income. After all they have to fill their columns and airways 24/7.  

I've never trusted anyone further than I can throw them until we've been through a testing time. I always prefer to look people in the whites of their eyes so that I can see what they are thinking rather than speaking or in other cases writing. 

I'm not justifying anything but you certainly have a bee in your bonnet about it - may be you have a political agenda behind your quest.

If he has done something wrong that can be proved then he will be brought to task and you can rest in peace.

 

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grey_man    165

There you go. Suspicious of other people but not your ex colleagues. There is no political agenda here except the desire to clean people like Keane out of the system. And you've just proved my point. Whenever a politician is caught out doing something they shouldn't, the automatic response of other politicians is to excuse the behaviour and turn on the media and the voters. You've just done exactly that.  

You can't bemoan a general distrust of politicians and bullshit like UKIP and Brexit while certain politicians play the system and breach their own code of conduct. The two are linked. 

You'll need some evidence that he will be dealt with, because so far it's only voters and the media saying his behaviour is unacceptable, albeit that the members of the PCP clearly see it all as a problem. The PCP has hinted strongly in their dealings with him but the local Labour Party is very quiet. This is an issue that has made the national press on several occasions now, and yet not a peep from the local party. So, you can't argue he will be dealt with. They're just doing what they always do and hoping that everybody will forget about it. 

There are two possibilities in this case. One is that Keane is unaware of or indifferent to perceptions of the way he behaves, in which case he has terrible judgement. The other is that he is corrupt. 

Let's assume it's the former, because it's still the most likely explanation and we're always on safer ground suggesting 'cock up' rather than 'conspiracy'. Certainly when you look at his ridiculous attempt to run the General Election campaign even though he is supposed to be politically neutral as PCC and that's apparently a full time job anyway, it would suggest that. 

He still has to go. He has to be removed from all public office. 

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grey_man    165
12 hours ago, Geoffrey Settle said:

I didn't use the word suspicious I used trust, anyway let's call him naïve.:huh:

Maybe so, but he's still in breach of the principles he signed up to. He may be naive. He may be indifferent. He may be corrupt.

None of that matters because he needs to be judged on his actions. He needs to go and the local party needs to ensure it happens and they also need to ascertain the role of the Dirirs. 

Did anybody seriously believe he could appoint a family friend without disclosing his association without questions being asked? Do you?

The one bit of good news to come out of all this is that he has proved that the role of PCC is part time, so we can expect the halving of his salary. The fact he wouldn't ask his Deputy to give up her other jobs proves her's is too. So she can expect a large cut in pay too. Don't you agree?

Final question. He's interviewing for a 'chief of staff'. Care to bet on whether he appoints somebody with a link to him or Warrington Borough Council? Based on his performance in the PCP, he doesn't like anybody asking him even very basic questions, so he'll either want somebody who doesn't bother with tiresome issues like ethics and impartiality or doesn't care what answer he gives. Or maybe he could just buy one of these. 

DDt0gP.gif
 

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Well I've already answered the first question earlier it would happen where I've worked without disclosure, obviously this area of police procedures is not as robust, maybe I should apply for the 'Chief of Staff' job with my first task to scrutinise this process.

As for pay it should be pro ratar - no whether or not that's a lot is in the eye of the beholder - it's certainly more than my didily squat.

But now you talk about a new opportunity - how do I find out about this 'Chief of Staff' - sounds interesting - trouble is I would have to give up some of my voluntary work but maybe I could channel some of my salary like Andy Burnham is going to do.

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grey_man    165

It was advertised on the PCC website some time ago, so I bet they've already done the interviews. We await the announcement with bated breath. It took some brass neck for him to announce he was going to lead the General Election campaign after weeks of controversy in the press and the scrutiny of the PCP, so let's see. If he appoints the equivalent of his Gran's cat (following an open and transparent process obviously) I'll be making a formal complaint myself. 

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