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Threat of library closures

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It's the last day of the consultation today - for anyone who wants to but hasn't yet given their views on the closures.

St Helens council have decided to deal with their cuts in Govt funding by cutting hours of opening from 507hrs to 406hrs per week. They are not closing ANY of their libraries. They have really good library services and a brilliant online catalogue of local history documents, most of which can be viewed in full at the main library. Much of Warrington's local history is only available to view in Chester records office.
Warrington could perhaps take a leaf out of St Helens book!

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You can be fined for tearing leaves out of library books! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Given the terminological inexactitudes in livewires figures perhaps it is time that their activities were looked into with some serious consideration.

 

If they cant even get the number of months in a year correct, (they were only out by 25%), then some concern must be expressed over their finance department. 

 

:wacko::ph34r:8)

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It's the last day of the consultation today - for anyone who wants to but hasn't yet given their views on the closures.

 

St Helens council have decided to deal with their cuts in Govt funding by cutting hours of opening from 507hrs to 406hrs per week. They are not closing ANY of their libraries. They have really good library services and a brilliant online catalogue of local history documents, most of which can be viewed in full at the main library. Much of Warrington's local history is only available to view in Chester records office.

Warrington could perhaps take a leaf out of St Helens book!

 

I have already done the consulataion, I did it when it first came out, but on reflection maybe I should have waited a while as I would have had far more points, suggestions and questions to raise had I left it until now. 

 

Sha you raise a very good point re local history resources and yes many of Warrington's have been moved to Chester Records Office over the years.  While I appreciate that some of it has been moved there for safe storage (particulary the older records which I believe are/were stored in the salt mines in Northwich and are taken out of safe storage for viewing at Chester but only by prior request and appointment.  It makes for very difficult research unless you know the exact item you are wanting to look at.  A lot of records transferred to Chester are not in such storage though but still you have to now go there to view them. 

 

I have been to Chester twice to view records from Warrington and to be honest it's was a complete pain in the a**e both in travel and time spent trying to view things in my allocated 'booked in slot' time.

 

Also WHY have Live Wire/Warrington Library never looked into digitising all the microfiche records they have for the Warrington Guardian or Warrington Examiner newspapers etc.  They have a huge collection on film spanning more than a century which must hold so many fascinating records but most are virtually unreadable on their antiquated microfilm viewers.  When I have asked in Library in the past why they have never been digitiised to enable searching for specific things they have said it's all down to cost although they never said how much it would cost to do.  I wonder if anyone actually knows.

 

When you look on sites like Find My Past and the British Newspaper Archives many other newspapers are digitised and searchable and some are not even as old as our Warrington newspapers and records.

Some of our local Parish Church records have been put on and are searchable now though but who instigated that and who paid?  Was it the churches themselves ?

 

As both Find My Past and the British Newspaper Archives, for example, charge quite hefty subscriptions to their members I wonder if they also offer funding towards digitisation of other newspaper records etc that would then be available to them in return to form part of their sites records.  Maybe FMP and others even PAY to host local records... has anyone from Livewire asked ?

 

I'm rambling...sorry...and I'm half a sleep.. I'm not really making much sense to myself now but in my head I understand what I'm on about and why  :oops:  :lol: 

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Not sure how much it would cost to digitise the records even just the microfiche ones. it would probably be the time needed to "scan them in" and then check them for accuracy against the originals and then organise them in the correct catalogue section.

 

Just take the time to figure out how long it would take to sort out your photgraphs into a meaningful easily searchable order. multiply that by the millions of items that must be stored in the archives and you will have some idea of the task.Also factor in that some of the archive material will be of a physically delicate nature and will most likely need very careful handling so as not to damage the originals beyond repair.

 

It could be done but would require a lot of, pc mode engaged, person hours to do it.

 

If you think about our weekly printed version of the G********n. any archive has to be sorted by date, section, and article with relevant links to any pictures. How long would it take to even scan one issue into a digital form without any other reference apart from date and page number or each issue. (of course with most publications now coming out in digital form that is rather a moot point as they are stored in digital form already)

 

places like FMP and such charge to cover the cost of that having been done and probably for access to archives that have already been digitised by other organisations.

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From what I understand regarding the microfiche films of the guardian and Examiner, the library has more than one copy of each of the films (one for the general public and one for "best")

 

They also now have a PC based scanning system that will allow the film to be scanned to pdf. There are a lot of films but only one PC (we installed the networking to it and I got a few free goes while setting it up) I even offered my time to go in and help to scan the films to a searchable pdf file which could then be placed online and if necessary, the library could charge a small fee for access.... 

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From what I understand regarding the microfiche films of the guardian and Examiner, the library has more than one copy of each of the films (one for the general public and one for "best")

 

They also now have a PC based scanning system that will allow the film to be scanned to pdf. There are a lot of films but only one PC (we installed the networking to it and I got a few free goes while setting it up) I even offered my time to go in and help to scan the films to a searchable pdf file which could then be placed online and if necessary, the library could charge a small fee for access.... 

So if they already have a computer/scanner system in house which would enable them to convert their microfiche to digital format (even if that's just searchable pdf's) why on earth are they not using it? 

I realise there are only so many hours in the day and staff are probably busy with other things but like you said Baz you would be willing to offer some of your time to do some, and so would I.  In fact I'd jump at the chance to help and be involved but then again I do get a buzz out of doing boring and monotonous tasks....but this would be fab as the end result would be such a huge step forward and so fascinating to actually be able to read through the digitised version even if their was a small charge or subscription to access it. 

 

I'm sure there are many other people who are more than capable who would volunteer some of their time for free too. 

 

There are also family research and local history groups who would probably help as there is so much info contained in the old local newspapers which would be a fantastic aid to anyone researching but it's virtually impossible to find anything with the present system unless you know the actual year you are looking for and even then it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.  You can't even zoom in on the antiquated microfiche readers.  Nightmare !!

 

I just cant see what the problem is as they only have about 2 cabinets of microfiche reels anyway. 

 

Come on WBC/Livewire/Warrington Museum and Library...lets make a plan and get it done :D :D :D  

 

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I suggested to Patsy and Janice at the museum that it would be a good idea, each edition of the papers could be scanned as a single page per edition and then collated into one file to make easy cataloguing. I've used the scanner (well I had to test the network connections :) ) and it is very easy to use as it will scan a complete page in one go. You can also email directly from it too :)

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So back to my previous question Baz...WHY are they not doing it? 

They [the library/museum] have published many books about local history in the name of Janice Hayes and the Warrington Guardian run a column every week about yester years so surely having it all digitised would help them too re finding interesting information.  Maybe they don't really want all the newspaper stories, photos and other info to be online and searchable by everyone though as it may hinder their own future plans for books etc.  Ok sorry that was just my cynical head speaking....

It always bugs me that they have such a huge collection of fascinating old photo's and other records too, many of which I believe were bequeathed to them over the years for safe keeping and as a historical record to be viewed and seen by the members of the public for eternity as a record of times gone by.  Alas most are never seen by the public eye though...all stored away in the depths of beyond it seems and not well catalogued :( 

Maybe if the main Library does have to close in the town centre and gets moved to newer premises (wherever that may be) they could use the existing library building to expand the local history archives and reference room so that more is on show and available for viewing in house.  And bring back all out local stuff from Chester Archives too so we can store and view it in Warrington  !!!

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At the planning meeting tonight the proposed move of the town centre library from the museum street site to the golden square former shop will be discussed.

 

First question - why is this even taking place? The (so called) public consultation showed, with a 10,000 + petition against the changes to library services and a good amount of the 2,000+ respondents to the LW/WBC consultation against the proposals that THE PEOPLE OF WARRINGTON DO NOT WANT THE PROPOSED CHANGES.

 Legally, there was a necessity for a public consultation - and legally the public consultation has to be "effective" in that the public's response effects the outcome and can thus reverse any proposals made.

 The public have decidedly rejected the proposals - which should mean - end of.

 

Enough money has been wasted already on putting together proposals that were in the first place not compliant with the Libraries Act 1964, - then holding a 'public consultation' which could be challenged as 'not fit for purpose'. Now, even worse, it appears they are hoping to be able to disregard the public's given responses to this consultation. 

Have they even considered the costs they will incur should the public decide on a legal challenge? Which, is easy enough for community groups to do these days as they can get their costs limited to £5,000 (should they lose - which in this case seems unlikely!). WBC/LW on the other hand would find a legal challenge very expensive.

 

Re the relocation of the town centre library, perhaps WBC/LW think that as they are proposing to 'just relocate it' this will be acceptable?

The full details of this relocation were not made public during the 'consultation' - the plans for the changes to the old library building were not revealed - possibly due to the fact that when they were shown to the small group who attended the Culture meeting they were greeted with shock & horror!

What they obviously haven't considered are the possible consequences of pushing forward plans the public don't want. They are relying on funding from English Heritage to make their grotesque modernist changes to the beautiful old library building - a 10,000+ petition to English Heritage to protest about heritage funding being given to destroy our local heritage

could scupper their plans.

 

Why does WBC seem always intent on forcing on the public what the public don't want?  There are WIN-WIN alternatives!  St Helen's council has managed to cut some charges to library services without closing any of their libraries. And St Helen's, though being a smaller town than Warrington has long since operated a far better library service than Warrington.

 

Lastly, when Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is a major protester against library/museum closures what is a Labour majority council like Warrington doing even considering closing ours? Shameful!                

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Interesting.... yesterday Livewire submitted additional info for tonight's planning meeting in the form of artists impressions of what the inside of the shoe shop library could look like.

And an hour ago I read this....

Proposed change of use - Unit 108 (Funky Dory Shoes), Golden Square - 2016/28562

"Please note that the application has been withdrawn and will not now be heard tonight"

Bryan Magan
Head of Democratic and Member Services
Warrington Borough Council


Odd that they have withdrawn it last minute....was it perhaps because of something you said Sha :wink:
 

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Hi SHA and Paul. I’m a Lymm Parish councillor, and if you click on the video, that’s me – I’m absolutely committed to keeping the library open, essentially to the service levels we have (Or more), partially by making the argument that Warrignton has cut too deep on libraries already – we’re 30-50% below the funding rates of other councils who have also made cuts, but also in looking at how we could utilise the building, maybe funded by the Parish, to reduce running costs for Livewire. It’s all up in the air, and you don’t line up all your negotiating points before hand publicly! –  As for Ian – He’s helped run several meetings we’ve had to collect information on what we call ‘alternative models’  - other approaches to keeping the library open. He’s been out on the streets collecting signatures, and we have a date – December the 5th, to make the council debate Lymm in particular. It sits alongside the other libraries – we don’t want to close others to save Lymm – although a honest review might find some that were not viable. He’s worked hard, but remember as a Borough councillor, he needs a degree of flexibility. Of the Borough councillors I know, he is a hard worker, and with Bob Barr, is certainly engaging more than some others on the council.

 

 

It appears to me that the Lib Dems in are out in full force to 'make an issue' out of the threatened closure.

Cllrs Ian Marks & Bob Barr's involvement in this campaign certainly doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

Note, They are "looking at how we could utilise the building, maybe funded by the Parish, to reduce running costs for Livewire".

 

Re Cllr Mark's efforts   "As for Ian – He’s helped run several meetings we’ve had to collect information on what we call ‘alternative models’  - other approaches to keeping the library open."

 

As well as helping to run meetings  "He’s been out on the streets collecting signatures....."  --- gaining maximum publicity!

But, we need to remember, "..........he needs a degree of flexibility" ----Why? to be able to work both sides of the fence?

 

 

Their 'campaign' seems to me to be progressing the ideas put forward by WBC & Livewire rather than campaigning against the proposed changes! 

WBC have a statutory duty to provide library services so why should they even consider that Parish Councils fund them?

Why are these 'campaigners' focusing efforts on trying to reduce costs for Livewire

Have the meetings they have been running been gathering support for a challenge to the proposed changes or have they merely been gathering support for 'alternative models' - which are what WBC & Livewire propose?

 

What they are being clear about is that their efforts are not being focused on all the town's libraries but "Lymm in particular". 

"It sits alongside the other libraries – we don’t want to close others to save Lymm – although a honest review might find some that were not viable".  - but they are considering this possibility?

 

Also, no mention whatever about the proposed destruction of the Historic Town Centre Library building - this doesn't seem of any concern to them.

 

Hi SHA

 

Hadn't realised you'd taken my reply out of context - shame really. 

 

Have I met you on any of the save warrington events? You must have bumped in to me - I've been at all the main ones. We've a Lymm campaign, and I'm certainly part of the wider campaign - working hard to keep all parts of the library system open. I'm sure you've been working hard as well.

 

Anyway, I'm sure I'll see you at the council debate on the 5th December? Or maybe one of the other library events coming up...

 

Ciao

 

Graham

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Welcome to the forum GrahamWA13.

Just wondering but what is the council debate on 5th Dec that you mention a I've not seen anything about that anywhere.  Is it open to all and is it re: library closures or other things too ?

I am refraining from making any reference to Marks and Barr from your quoted text and reply to Sha as to be honest the mere mention of both their names still makes my blood boil and my blood pressure raise to possible dangerous levels. Full support years ago on an issue in Stockton Heath, but then again there was an election looming.  They were voted in and then turned on their heels on an issue giving two fingers to the voters they had duped.  Shameful and things like that are NOT forgotten.

Anyway this is about saving the libraries...so what was the past is in the past...politics and the party or party line line should NOT play any part in local issues and decisions. 

Lets all work together for a solution that benefits ALL :D

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Welcome to the forum GrahamWA13.

 

Just wondering but what is the council debate on 5th Dec that you mention a I've not seen anything about that anywhere.  Is it open to all and is it re: library closures or other things too ?

 

I am refraining from making any reference to Marks and Barr from your quoted text and reply to Sha as to be honest the mere mention of both their names still makes my blood boil and my blood pressure raise to possible dangerous levels. Full support years ago on an issue in Stockton Heath, but then again there was an election looming.  They were voted in and then turned on their heels on an issue giving two fingers to the voters they had duped.  Shameful and things like that are NOT forgotten.

 

Anyway this is about saving the libraries...so what was the past is in the past...politics and the party or party line line should NOT play any part in local issues and decisions. 

 

Lets all work together for a solution that benefits ALL :D

Hi Dizzy

 

I'm sure Sally wasn't getting political.

 

Anyway, the 5th Dec is the full borough council meeting. Because of the numbers of petition signatures collected we've a chance to put the issue in front of the Borough Council, and for it to be debated. The Lymm campaign has a hearing, as we're up to about 4.5K signatures. I think you commented on the Lymm Pages announcement: http://www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/2016/10/10/lymm-library-campaigners-to-challenge-council-over-closure/

 

The wider 'Save Warrington Library' campaign also has a hearing on the same day, so it's going to be an interesting evening. 

 

It's the full borough council meeting, so there is a bit more on the agenda than Libraries, I would think.

 

Cheers

 

Graham

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Ahh thanks Graham, yes I did know that due to petition signature numbers  it means the issue would be put before the full council for debate but I thought that was sooner than Dec. 
I do need to try and keep up with dates and events better. In my own defence I don't really use social media on my mobile phone and have no access at work either so I have to play catch-up when I'm at home on my home PC.

I thought the full council debate only related to the council websites petition though so it's good to hear that the wider 'save the libraries' campaign also has a hearing at the same meeting so yes it should be an interesting and lively evening :wink:

Yes I commented on the link you've posted hence the reason there are comments made by 'Dizzy'..unless there are now two of me :wink: Scary though that eh?  :lol:

I have no idea who you mean by 'Sally' and 'her' not being political.  Did you mean Sha ?

What do you make of the sudden withdrawal of the planning application last night?  I was all set to try and get through the traffic in time for the decision meeting then someone told me it had been withdrawn.  Bit odd that.  Do you think it's just a delay tactic and will it raise it's ugly head again once the dust has settled?

All seems very strange to me.

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Hard to say about the planning application - there were certainly some irregularities pointed out leading up to the meeting, and quite a lot going on under the surface, but I'm surprised they pulled it. On simple planning grounds it could possibly have gone through - although that's not the same as the move being authorised...

 

It has been fully withdrawn... http://myplanning.warrington.gov.uk/Planning/StreamDocPage/obj.pdf?DocNo=8648560&PageNo=1&content=obj.pdfso would need to be resubmitted, unless they are going for permitted development - which would be ironic if it's going to a D2 - 'Leisure' classification...

 

Livewire has apparently said it's a move by their agent - hmmm...

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Graham, I know who you are and am aware of the prominent role you are attempting to play in the 'Save Warrington Libraries' campaign.

It wouldn't however be my intention or my wish to 'bump into you' at either the upcoming library events or the council debate.

You are obviously strongly linked with Bob Barr & Ian Marks, which can only be because either you are playing an active part in the Lymm political propaganda stunt or you are extremely and hopelessly naïve.

Clls Barr & Marks have a long history of deceiving the public - if you are in any doubt about this all you need to do is read through the council minutes of the meetings of the Walton Hall sell off attempt, where you will find that what they were declaring in public was in direct contrast to what they were doing behind closed doors. The 'call in' for scrutiny resulted in the 'private' part of the meeting to be revealed in full to the public, exposing them for the deceivers they are. Then there was also the totally unethical overturning of the planning decision on Stockton Heath Primary School, which resulted in the demolition of a beautiful heritage building, six years of education provision in 'special measures', and a very costly surplus of primary school places - which has served no other purpose

than to provide the infrastructure and easier planning permission for future housing development.

These are the type of people you choose to work with?

 

Re the 'Save Lymm Library Campaign'. What a load of pathetic political point scoring and propaganda!

LYMM LIBRARY IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN UNDER ANY REAL THREAT OF CLOSURE!

So what's all the fuss been created for?

To deceive the people of Lymm into thinking that they could lose their Library so that they will be fooled into agreeing to 'extra costs' on their community charge to save it and/or agree to cuts in Library services and accept money generating alternative uses for the building. Whilst all the time Barr & Marks &Co put up a 'farce' of a fight for their own self publicity / political gain.

Why then, you may ask, do the opposing political parties not expose the farce? Simple, they get the extra £££'s from the people of Lymm and also avert any backlash in their own political strongholds where it wouldn't go down well if it was known that the threats to Libraries was only in their areas.

 

Like I said Graham, I think you either know what is really going on or otherwise you are extremely and hopelessly naïve.

 

I just hope and pray that Dina Kingsnorth Baird is savvy enough to not let you or any of the political self-publicists sabotage her wonderful campaign.

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Also worth adding that Bob Barr headed up the planning team at the time of the records destruction and subsequent four year cover up. I think it's fair to say he had a prominent role in the creation of the myth that it was all down to some rogue employee rather than a a full team effort over a period of time followed by four years of the department offering advice without mentioning that they had destroyed the information they needed to give it. Subsequently his finger pointed readily at the residents responsible for bringing the issue to light and asking questions and less readily - ie not at all - at the people responsible. I know he's gone on public record attacking residents but hasn't said a thing about the officers who broke the law.

Not a very straightforward man.    

 

BTW. Has there ever been any explanation for the mysterious set of accounts that appeared at the time the council wanted to sell off Walton Hall? The one with the made up numbers?

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Sha, why do you say that

"LYMM LIBRARY IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN UNDER ANY REAL THREAT OF CLOSURE!

and also

So what's all the fuss been created for? To deceive the people of Lymm into thinking that they could lose their Library so that they will be fooled into agreeing to 'extra costs' on their community charge to save it and/or agree to cuts in Library services and accept money generating alternative uses for the building......."


A list of libraries facing possible closure was given and Lymm was one of them.  If Marks was still head of the council then yes I may say Lymm's had just been included 'on the list' so as not to show any favouritism but he's not so how could he or his once side kick Bob Bar have any say in the future of Lymm Library or how could it be a smoke screen and farce. 

I don't get what you mean sorry.  What I do get though is why you have no time or respect for either of those two and neither have I.

Reading between the lines in what you say I can only presume that perhaps GrahamWA13 is a Lib Dem supporter or even LD councillor too but maybe to tar every Lib Dim with the same brush as the other two (ie Marks an Bar) and to expect the same to be done (or not done dependent on how you look at is) is a tad unfair though so perhaps your comments to GahamWA13 may have been a little unfair at this stage.

 

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I didn't realise the Lib Dums were still going.... although I did hear they were planning their next party conference in a phone box on Brighton Seafront :)

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Also worth adding that Bob Barr headed up the planning team at the time of the records destruction and subsequent four year cover up. I think it's fair to say he had a prominent role in the creation of the myth that it was all down to some rogue employee rather than a a full team effort over a period of time followed by four years of the department offering advice without mentioning that they had destroyed the information they needed to give it. Subsequently his finger pointed readily at the residents responsible for bringing the issue to light and asking questions and less readily - ie not at all - at the people responsible. I know he's gone on public record attacking residents but hasn't said a thing about the officers who broke the law.

 

Not a very straightforward man.    

 

BTW. Has there ever been any explanation for the mysterious set of accounts that appeared at the time the council wanted to sell off Walton Hall? The one with the made up numbers?

 

 

 

Yes, grey_man.

He's also on public record for bragging about having 'dotted the i's and crossed the t's on the Town Centre Regeration project' when they were in power at he Town Hall - which was long, long before the 'so called' public consultation was held.

One could go on and on and on................certainly not a very straightforward man!

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Sha, why do you say that

"LYMM LIBRARY IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN UNDER ANY REAL THREAT OF CLOSURE!

   

 

It's to do with the legalities of the matter Diz.

and also

 

A list of libraries facing possible closure was given and Lymm was one of them.  If Marks was still head of the council then yes I may say Lymm's had just been included 'on the list' so as not to show any favouritism but he's not so how could he or his once side kick Bob Bar have any say in the future of Lymm Library or how could it be a smoke screen and farce.

 

I don't get what you mean sorry.  What I do get though is why you have no time or respect for either of those two and neither have I.

 

If Lymm hadn't been included on 'the list of possible closures' there wouldn't have needed to be any consultations in Lymm and thus no real opportunity to engage the public, in Graham Gowlands words, "...... looking at how we could utilise the building, maybe funded by the Parish, to reduce running costs for Livewire"  or "collecting information on what we call 'alternative models', " 

So, if Lymm Library is not really under threat of closure why are Cllrs Marks & Barr looking for " 'alternative models' other approaches to keeping the library open" .

Well, as Graham Gowland points out  "remember as a Borough councillor, he needs a degree of flexibility". 

As Borough Councillors Marks & Barr are working to cut funding to Library services (including in Lymm)  As Parish Councillors they are 'appearing' not to. 

 

Reading between the lines in what you say I can only presume that perhaps GrahamWA13 is a Lib Dem supporter or even LD councillor too but maybe to tar every Lib Dim with the same brush as the other two (ie Marks an Bar) and to expect the same to be done (or not done dependent on how you look at is) is a tad unfair though so perhaps your comments to GahamWA13 may have been a little unfair at this stage.

 

 

Diz, I don't "tar every Lim Dem Councillor with the same brush".  There are Councillors of all political parties that are OK and some not so.

I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for Clls Marks or Barr, this has nothing at all to do with which political party they belong to it is to do with their behaviour whilst in office, examples of which have already been given.

I have no idea what Graham Gowland is like as a Councillor but his close workings with Cllrs Marks & Barr (he even praises them!)  make me wonder whether he is aware of their past dealings and OK with that or otherwise is he just hopelessly naïve?

Only Mr Gowland could enlighten us on this.  

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Yes, grey_man.

He's also on public record for bragging about having 'dotted the i's and crossed the t's on the Town Centre Regeration project' when they were in power at he Town Hall - which was long, long before the 'so called' public consultation was held.

One could go on and on and on................certainly not a very straightforward man!

I think we have a new euphemism for politicians and their lack of 'straighforwardness'. 

 

I do enjoy the way the council now claims to have saved Walton Hall when it had held secret meetings with potential buyers, concocted a set of accounts to justify the sale that included some very strange numbers and officially referred to the ultimate decision of the buyers not to go ahead with the project as 'disappointing' (© Andy Farrell).

 

Also fascinating was watching Laurence Murphy printing leaflets to inform the residents of Stockton Heath that the closure of the village tip was in their best interests and they'd love the drive to Gatewarth during office hours, only to then suddenly claim he'd in fact campaigned for the tip to stay open when the pitchforks and torches came out. The leaflets must have been a figment of our imaginations.  

 

Doubtless the shifting plans to close the libraries are subject to the same forces of reinvention. Not that the council has any say in what LiveWire does. None at all. It's an independent organisation and the fact it's staffed by ex council employees and propped up by the council is nothing to do with anything.   

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I think we have a new euphemism for politicians and their lack of 'straighforwardness'.

 

:lol:

Which is certainly more acceptable for this forum than the 'pleasant little colloquialisms' that first spring to my mind. 

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